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737 NG: Fly By Wire?  
User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4506 posts, RR: 53
Posted (9 years 8 months ago) and read 15359 times:

can someone quickly tell me if the 737NG is fly-by-wire? I am trying to finish a report!


PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15293 times:

No, it is not FBW

Filler Filler



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineRightwayup From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15232 times:

Only one item - the thrust control system.
Unfortunately the NG from the start is a very outdated design. Apart from the uptodate avionics and the much improved wing it is still the same old design.


User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15213 times:

But if you refer to the FADEC as "engine FBW" you are likely to get a laugh or two, even if people will get what you are referring to.  Big grin


I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offline747NUT From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15204 times:

What about the aileron and rudder trim ?  Wink/being sarcastic


If it's not broken, don't fix it !
User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1338 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15115 times:

Yes, Aileron & Rudder Trim Actuators are operated electrically and yes they move primary control surfaces. But they are not referred to as FBW. Stabilzier Trim for that matter would also be considered as FBW.
FBW generally consists of a computer that would factor in alot of external stuff (air data, parameteres, etc) and control the flight controls based on control column, rudder pedal position.

The B757/767 Spoiler system is the closest that could be comparable to FBW on pre-B777 Beoing aircraft.


User currently offline747NUT From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15007 times:

Don't worry Cdfmxtech, I was only making a joke with the trim remark.
I realize that a FBW involves electrical signals as the primary method of moving a primary control surface.

Regards
Mike



If it's not broken, don't fix it !
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1559 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 14983 times:

At no point of any B737 NG documents the word FBW is mentioned.


Widen your world
User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14913 times:

Unfortunately the NG from the start is a very outdated design

Just because there's no FBW doesn't mean it's outdated. They needed to make the airplane compatable with the classics, keep in mind. The 73Gs are among the most updated aircraft out there.



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User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 14904 times:

Rightwayup:

Aside from a completely new avionics system and wing you also have a new vertical, horizontal, APU, packs, landing gear and updated engines. As as you can see the 737NG was far from an outdated design at the start.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3148 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 14852 times:

By the logic that the NG is out of date you could also make the same claim about the A320s as they are over 20 years old in design now as well. NOT trying to start and A vs B thing here but making a point.

It is a little odd moving a throttle on an engine with FADEC however, no real feel to it other than the detents at the top for the various power settings.




DMI
User currently offlineRightwayup From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 4 weeks ago) and read 14842 times:

Do not even try to compare the minibus with the NG. I have flown both and even the oldest airbuses are light years ahead of the NG. The problem with making the NGs compatible with the old 73s is that in 10 years when just the NGs are left they are going to be dinosaurs. I would not mind so much but the -3,4,500s are much better designed aircraft, and far superior in build quality. I feel the NGs were built in a manner to compete with the bus, and as such are quite flimsy aircraft. I am now back on the bus, and although miss the fun of flying the -300 I do not miss the -700!

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14804 times:

I have flown both and even the oldest airbuses are light years ahead of the NG.

That comment really does not make any sense. An A320 coming off the production line in 1994 is almost the same exact aircraft as one that came off the line last week. Sure there will be some changes here and there but still the same aircraft.


The problem with making the NGs compatible with the old 73s is that in 10 years when just the NGs are left they are going to be dinosaurs.

From a pilots perspective the 737NG is pretty much the same as a classic. However from a maintenance and engineering perspective it is not. As I pointed out before from an avionics standpoint it's completely different. Even things that look the same to a pilot are not. For example I cannot take an MCP form a classic and put it into an NG, totally incompatible. Just as I cannot swap APU's or engines between the types. I could go on but I think you get the idea.


I would not mind so much but the -3,4,500s are much better designed aircraft, and far superior in build quality.

What exactly do you base this on. I've worked on a number of commercial aircraft and I have found the "build quality" to be excellent on the 737NG.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14800 times:

I would not mind so much but the -3,4,500s are much better designed aircraft, and far superior in build quality.
The NG is a much Mx Friendlier Aircraft than its classic Ancestors.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineRightwayup From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14780 times:

Maybe from an engineering point of view, but to operate it is a completely different thing. And yes the old A320s are quite different to the ones just off the production line. Revamped A/Cond system, upgraded avionics, FMGC updated, hydraulic and brake system redesigned to name but a few mods. Most of my colleagues would agree with me, having moved from the 737 to the bus. I used to rate Boeing very highly, the 747-400 for example is a beautiful and very well made aircraft and is possibly my favourite aircraft to fly, however I feel the NG has let Boeing down. Anyway each to their own, if you guys enjoy maintaining or operating it thats got to be good for you.

User currently offlineDan2002 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 2055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 14754 times:

Rightwayup, I did not know one could fly the 737, 737NG, A32X series, and the 744!?


A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3466 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14746 times:

It is a little odd moving a throttle on an engine with FADEC however, no real feel to it other than the detents at the top for the various power settings.

Huh? I don't think it is a FADEC issue, but rather how the designers designed the artificial feedback (if any). Both the 738 & MD90 throttles have the "feel" of a traditional throttle quadrant. No detents and full authority movement with engine power settings.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14748 times:

. I used to rate Boeing very highly, the 747-400 for example is a beautiful and very well made aircraft and is possibly my favourite aircraft to fly, however I feel the NG has let Boeing down.

Ugh... your irational sentiments aside, every single fact in the world disagrees with you  Insane

Do you know what Boeing found in the 1990s? That the cost of an all-new design, including massive retooling, would not justify the miniscule performance gain it would have. An all-new design would also blow the commonality that crucial launch customers like WN demanded. So that's right, Boeing is smarter than you.

The 737NG is the best selling of all 737 models to date, reached major sales and delivery points faster than the A320, has an unbeatable reliability and safety record, and recycling the 737 cross-section allowed Boeing to do this for far less than an all-new design.

Please elaborate how If 2,200+ sales in one decade has let Boeing down....


User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1338 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14702 times:

It's funny. The word Avionics is supposed to mean Aviation Electronics.
Well, every ATA on that aircraft with the exception of 25, 29, 30, 33, 35 & 36, and the 50s (except 52) has some sort of electronic interface! All they all got a makeover.

In addition, many of those above mentioned ATAs got huge makeovers. Combine that with the different wings, engines, stabs, etc - and you've got yourself A TOTALLY DIFFERENT AIRPLANE. Approach a B737 Next Gen the way you'd approach a B737 Classic, and most of the time you'll fall flat on yoru face.

Also, while I haven't had the opportunity to work athe A320s, why do most people associate an airplane that does a whoile bunch of tricks with being "More modern". From what I have read, and they many people that I have talked to, Airbus puts alot of things on their airplanes that aren't really that neceaasry (or at least so it seems).

Just my opinion.


User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 14678 times:

Actually Dfw, i would like to the think the 737NG is only 8 years old, since rollout was 12/08/96. But i guess it's when the clearance to build that's more impt.

Nevertheless, The HUD combined with the sexiest winglets on the planet, the 737NG way way kick's A320's butt, sorry RightWayUp!



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14638 times:

Maybe from an engineering point of view, but to operate it is a completely different thing.

So you admit that the 737NG is a completely different aircraft than the classic. That's what I have been saying all along! As for operating it being a completely different thing I believe that's what Boeing was trying to accomplish. Updating an aircraft but having minimal differences when it came to crew training.

Revamped A/Cond system, upgraded avionics, FMGC updated, hydraulic and brake system redesigned to name but a few mods.

So different that the A320's coming of the line are now called A320NG? Are they so different that airlines have to send their pilots and technicians back to school for a couple weeks of training?

I used to rate Boeing very highly, the 747-400 for example is a beautiful and very well made aircraft and is possibly my favorite aircraft to fly, however I feel the NG has let Boeing down.

HUH? I think Boeings order book says otherwise and the dispatch reliability rate of the 737NG. The 737-800 my airline flies has the highest dispatch reliability rate of all the aircraft in our fleet. Some might say that this is due to the fact that they are still relatively new. This may be true to some extent but just because an aircraft is new does not mean it's going to have a good dispatch reliability rate. When Delta started operating the MD-90 they found the reliability rate to be poor. So poor that they decided not to excercise the options on them.

Out of curiosity what airline do you fly for rightwayup?





User currently offlineRightwayup From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14628 times:

DFW Revolution
"every single fact in the world disagrees with you"
well thats a good argument for a start! Nice to see we are having a grown-up discussion!

LMP737 - I meant by that comment, that I would guess that maintenance on the 737NG is much easier than the EGs but from an operational point of view it is a very marginal improvement. FYI I fly for a UK company that is tinged orange.

Cdfmxtech - Again I would not like to argue against your viewpoints on maintenance but from an operational point of view the "overall" improvement to me as a pilot is negligible. A lot of people knock the EGs because of lack of reliability but they are getting on now. I am not so sure the NGs will stand up as well.

Greaser - I have to agree, those do look cool. I had heard a rumour that with those winglets VNAV could not deal with the different performance. Does anyone know if this is true?

Dan2002 - Not at the sametime, but in the last 2 1/2 years have flown all of them, I can tell you I have had my fill of courses.

Until a recent modification we could still only fly to Cat 3a limits (USA Cat 2). the NG does not fly anywhere near as nicely as an EG. If I had a maximum crosswind, I would choose to do it in an EG anyday. With that fantastic performance wing unfortunately you will have to pay for it in someway. I still cannot believe that in a modern airline jet that whilst flying an ILS I cannot preselect VORs for the Go-Around procedure.

And for those that need reminding ( not naming names DFW) I will repeat:

Anyway each to their own, if you guys enjoy maintaining or operating it thats got to be good for you.


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14566 times:

Nice to have another orange-flyer on here - you a LTN boy then Rightwayup?

Might ask you for some tips when the minibus course finally comes to us down South-West. Have been jumpseat on several Airbus flights (320 and 330 series) and it looked like a nice bird to me...



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14533 times:

Actually Dfw, i would like to the think the 737NG is only 8 years old, since rollout was 12/08/96. But i guess it's when the clearance to build that's more impt.

The 737NG reached primary design freeze in March of 1993, meaning 90% of the design was established. The other 10%, which most includes subcontracted systems, was defined during and after the construction began on the first prototype. So for practical purposes... the 737NG design is about ~10 years old, give or take.

well thats a good argument for a start! Nice to see we are having a grown-up discussion!

Well if you can somehow put together a fact, or a pattern, or a trend that has damaged the 737NG because it isn't an all-new design... I'd be willing to reconsider. But there is nothing to that effect... so I'll just continue being awesome....

If you insist that the 737NG is inferior or "let Boeing down" be prepared for a kick in the balls.... your thoughts fall in the There Were No Stupid Questions Until You Asked Category because it has been repeated more often than NW replacing the DC-9 and people arguing that the A343 climbs slowly.

Gigneil groans when people say Airbus gives away planes, I groan when people think Boeing are cheap-asses for not going all-new on the 737NG. Get a life (note that this isn't an invitation to tell me you "have one"  Insane ), and accept that the 737NG is a great aircraft and proof that with the right investment, any aircraft can be sucessful through multiple generations....


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14526 times:

Its true that the lap joint methods of the NG [30+ yr old design] could have been improved as the A320.Apart from that I dont think the NG is inferior in anyway.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 Rightwayup : Rick767, Have found on our route structure that the airbus is a vast improvement. Obvious improvements are the much larger flight deck, you don't feel
26 Boeing nut : Rightwayup, I have to go against you on the age bit. Personally, I can't stand it when people say the 737NG is an outdated design. For one thing, the
27 Gigneil : Gigneil groans when people say Airbus gives away planes, I groan when people think Boeing are cheap-asses for not going all-new on the 737NG. In every
28 LMP737 : LMP737 - I meant by that comment, that I would guess that maintenance on the 737NG is much easier than the EGs but from an operational point of view i
29 Rightwayup : LMP 737, The marginal improvement is related to pilot interaction. I understand the reason for making it similar to the classics, but unless they can
30 Asteriskceo : Both aircraft are beautiful. All aircraft are for that matter. A 100 years ago we only dreamed of the sky. We achieved it. Beautiful thing flight is.
31 Gigneil : I understand the reason for making it similar to the classics, but unless they can retrofit the NGs in the future the flight deck will have an extreme
32 Rightwayup : Sorry Gigneil I do not agree. The -700 overhead panel looks ancient! There are too many switches that are easily confused with neighbouring important
33 HAWK21M : Yes the P1,P2,P3 panel resembles the B777 in 'look'.But the rest still have a lot of the Classic look. Whats good about the B737NG is the BITE install
34 LMP737 : The marginal improvement is related to pilot interaction. I understand the reason for making it similar to the classics, but unless they can retrofit
35 A340600 : Most crews prefer the A32X, it is becauase the 737 design hasn't really changed since the 1960's. this is especially the case for cabin crews. Every s
36 LMP737 : A340/600: Do a little research and you will find that the 737NG has little in common with the classic 737 of the 1960's.
37 Post contains images DfwRevolution : In every way that matters, the Next Generation 737 is an all new airplane. I agree... I was just pointing out my pevee versus your pevee... I am sorry
38 AirxLiban : interesting, i did not realize what i started anyway, as the thread-originator i will just say that i dislike flying on both the 737 and 319/320! i wo
39 Rightwayup : DFW, No problem you love the aircraft, I don't. As simple as that! By the way, so I can understand your so eloquently put arguments what exactly do yo
40 DfwRevolution : No problem you love the aircraft, I don't. As simple as that! Eh my apologizes... i see that I was the bit of a dutche bag By the way, so I can unders
41 2H4 : The -700 overhead panel looks ancient! There are too many switches that are easily confused with neighbouring important switches What's confusing abou
42 Rightwayup : 2H4, That part I agree with, but take the example where engine anti-ice has been used. When you come to switch it off, the switches are of the same sh
43 HAWK21M : Agreed. The B737 has common looking switches that can be mistakenly operated.But looking it the other way,Don't you have to look at what you are switc
44 Rightwayup : Hawk, Yes, but over the years human error has emerged as the biggest cause of accidents, since aircraft are becoming more and more reliable. Thus pilo
45 Post contains links and images Rick767 : I love this crew's method of remembering which is the APU switch! View Large View MediumPhoto © Hannes Meyer
46 2H4 : The new MCP has the same shaped buttons I would LOVE to hear the rationale behind that decision. 2H4
47 Post contains images Vneplus5 : Rick, hmm... I bet that's a JAA-approved laser-cut high-tech ergonomically-designed APU peg
48 Post contains images HAWK21M : Thats a creative way of remembering where the APU switch is & not shutting it off by mistake. In the Classics the common mistake was the similiar swit
49 Klaus : 2H4: The new MCP has the same shaped buttons I would LOVE to hear the rationale behind that decision. Production cost. Want to bet?
50 2H4 : Production cost. Want to bet? Boy.......if that really is the reason, the folks who made the call are ABSOLUTE MORONS. There's a reason the rest of th
51 HAWK21M : Why did Boeing not ask for a change in the common switches later on.All it required was a Spline key & the replacement knob. regds MEL
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