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Atpl Questions  
User currently offlineHoward500 From Spain, joined Dec 2004, 77 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Hi,

Conscious of the actual job scenario for airline pilots, I am still determined to become one in due time, but I have some queries about the ATPL licenses and therefore where to do my training.

I know there are JAA and FAA based ATPL licenses available out there but Im not sure what they really mean. I am 21, with the legal ability to work both in the EU and US.

This is what I know (or think i do)  Smile :
FAA - US based license that enables one to work in the US
JAA - EU based license that enables one to work in the EU

This is what I would like to know:
Are there any "variations" of ATPL licenses within the FAA/JAA systems?
Is it hard(timewise)/expensive to convert from one to the other?
Within both types of licenses, are there any "extra" countries where these licenses can be used?
Are there any other ATPL licenses available/recommendable?
Are type ratings also mined with political crap?
For someone in my shoes, which labor market is "better" EU or US?

Thank you all in advance



advice is a form of nostalgia
9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2842 times:

I would go for the JAA. It is much easier to get a job in Europe than the US. I think you need 1500 hours to have a full JAA ATPL. Before that you have a frozen ATPL. In the US I think you need 1500TT and be of the age of 25. Not sure if there are any age limits in JAA. All I know for sure is that it is much easier to get a job in Europe. I wish I could. I am trying to get a Polish Passport as of now and that will allow me to have an EU passport so maybe in 10 years when I can go for a ATP I could work in Europe.
I not sure about my info. I tried my best. Hope it helps.
Also don't forget you need to pass Class One either FAA medical or JAA medical to become a commercial pilot.
Do you have any other ratings? PPL, Commercial etc.. If not you need to gets those first.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineORDflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2824 times:

I agree with Flymia...with the current airline situation in the US, and considering you are already over in Europe, I would go for the JAA and try to fly for a European airline.
1500 hours time sounds right for the FAA ATP...I thought for some reason that the age was 23 but I could be mistaken. Either way I wouldn't worry too much about the mimimum age because it would take you awhlie to accumulate the necessary hours anyways. I'm not sure how the JAA sequence goes, but to get an FAA ATP you would need to work your way up through private, instrument, commercial, multiengine, and likely CFI (flight instructor) first.
I don't know too much about differences between FAA/JAA licenses, but I have heard that it is quite difficult (tedious?) to try and convert between them, so I would try and decide first where you want to fly and get the apporpriate rating for that country. I think type ratings mostly come after you have been hired on with an airline so you shouldn't have to worry about those.
Flymia also made a good point about the medicals....before you invest any money in flight training it would be wise to go for the appropriate medical exam to be sure you don't have any disqualifying conditions.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

And... more about the respective required medical exams, from my local FAA/JAA certified guy, one of the very few in the USA.

FAA first class medical exam, $95, and takes about 45 minutes.

JAA first class medical exam, $375, and 'round about 6 hours (for the first one anyway).

Pays your money, takes your chances.


User currently offlineFlymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2760 times:

I thought I just read this question. Is there two? Any way best of luck to you hope you make it. I hope to one day too.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineG550 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2761 times:

For an ATP in the U.S. you must be 23 years of age with 1500 tt. There are further time breakdowns within this 1500 tt.

User currently offlineVneplus5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

The flight-training industry, more than any other, is full of bullshit, myths, and people trying to separate you from your money.

If there is one piece of advice I could give you, it's to be careful, and do your research thoroughly.

Are there any "variations" of ATPL licenses within the FAA/JAA systems?

Not with JAA. I suppose if you include rotary-wing, fixed-wing, balloon, etc, then yes there are, but within these broad categories, not any variations.

Is it hard(timewise)/expensive to convert from one to the other?

Yes, very expensive and time consuming, especially if converting from FAA to JAA. Let me guess, you have been getting the hard-sell from a USA-based training organisation like Comair (an airline-owned school blah blah blah)? Don't do it if all you plan to do is bring your licence back to Europe. It's best to go JAA from the start. Beware of the prices. They tell such half-truths and sometimes straight lies about how much it will cost.

Within both types of licenses, are there any "extra" countries where these licenses can be used?

Yes, lots for each, but you will have to refer to official documents for who accepts what.

Are there any other ATPL licenses available/recommendable?

You mean Australian, New Zealand, Brazilian, Canadian? Sure, but you have to think about where you plan to work. JAA is best, in my opinion, it is the easiest to convert, from my knowledge.

Are type ratings also mined with political crap?

Less so than the basic licences, but that's something minor to worry about, and not until you are at that stage.


I hope that helps.


User currently offlineHoward500 From Spain, joined Dec 2004, 77 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2735 times:

Thank you all for your comments, they are very much appreciated!!!
Veneplus5, thank you specially. One thing, you metion, Comair, what a suprise! That is eactly what ive been looking into, but the thing is they offer me a JAA ATPL licence plus the possibibility of working for them as an instructor for a while to build up to 1000 hours for a price that sounds reasonable (specially now that the $ isnt exactly strong), but i dont want to be naive! Any further comments about this academy will be appreciated1

Anyway thanK you again.



advice is a form of nostalgia
User currently offlineVneplus5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

One thing, you metion, Comair, what a suprise!

It's not a surprise at all, that's why I mentioned them specifically  Wink/being sarcastic

Don't worry - everyone who is doing their research comes across them eventually and we all get the Comair hard-sell.

The JAA programme is new since the time I was doing my research. It may well be worth doing. I haven't looked at it myself, but does sound interesting.

At risk of turning this into 'The Professional Flight Training Thread', here are some things to think about:

It's a huge decision that will cost you between 50,000 and 100,000 US Dollars. That is a serious amount of money in anyone's language.

First: Think how much are Acme Flight Training Company in Sunny Beach, Florida quoting for a 'Zero to ATPL' course.

Take that figure and add one third at least. I know a lot of pilots and none of them have ever finished anything within the minimum number of hours quoted by the training school.

Now add the cost of accommodation. This can represent a large percentage of the total cost. Is it a flea-infested hotel miles from the school? or is the accommodation on-site and owned/operated by the school? You will need to speak to current students and get their unbiased opinions of the accommodation. 'PPrune' is a good place to start.

You will be there for at least 18 months. It's unlikely you will want to do anything, even aviation, for 1.5 years without a break. Factor in a few trips back home, or at least for some time away from the work.

Other things you will need to pay for: Beer, toothpaste, condoms, shaving cream, phone calls, the list goes on and on....

These things may seem obvious, but those incredibly low prices quoted by Comair in their glossy brochures suddenly become a lot less attractive when you add all the extra things that I have mentioned above.

Now, the big test is this:

Do the same calculations for a school in Spain (or wherever you are based).

You can do a PPL locally just about anywhere. The ATPL theory can be done at home where you may be paying zero rent, depending on your circumstances, or there is probably a school that does it full-time classroom-based too. I understand that not everyone can do such a hard course as self-study. You may even be able to do a full-time or part-time job at the same time which will save you a lot of money.

Next, you can do the CPL/IR/MCC all in one go at various schools all over Europe. They often do it cheaper if you agree to do all of the units with one school at the same time.

What is the result? Compare the two prices and you may be very surprised at the result.

It's a half-truth at best, and a total myth at worst, that the USA is better and/or cheaper for professional flight training. The old excuse the British use for going to the USA is that the weather is better there (more flying days possible) but that hardly applies to you in Spain. In fact, there is a very big British school based in Jerez if I remember correctly. Might be worth checking out.

I'm not trying to turn you off the idea of Comair etc, but as I said above: The flight-training industry, more than any other, is full of bullshit, myths, and people trying to separate you from your money.

Be careful, do your research thoroughly, and NEVER pay any large amount of money in advance, no matter how attractive the discounts may be.


User currently offlineHoward500 From Spain, joined Dec 2004, 77 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Vneplus5

Your comments are all very true and well recieved, I will continue to do my reaserch carefully untill I decide what to do.

I will check out schools in Europe but no one that I have encountered so far really offers anything close to 1000 hours upon completion, most of which are paid as you fly for them as an instructor. Seems woth the living expenses abroad.

Anyway, thank you again for your comments!!!



advice is a form of nostalgia
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