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Sanding The Ramp  
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

this question is posed to those who work professionally in an ramp environment.

there is a new genious supervisor at my airline. lord knows why he's there but we won't start on that. we share certain gates with mainline aircraft and mainline deicing is conducted at the gates whereas at express we operate a deicing pad of our worn for deicing operations. yesterday, an aircraft (a A319) was deiced at the gate leaving glycol on the ramp. once that aircraft was pushed out the gate was returned to us for our use. the glycol remained. now on one of the parking spots there is a rutt right on the T where one would park an airplane. the problem occurred when an agent parked an airplane with it's nosegear in that rutt. our pushback tugs were unable to push the airplane out of the rutt, resulting in our needing to borrow a mainline pushback tug to do the job. all went well and the aircraft was pushed out.

now, this genious supervisor that we'll call "nightmare" made a big stink about the need to sand the ramp to clean up the glycol. firstly, when i was trained i was told to never sand the ramp down. secondly, it's just common sense not to do so since 737s and 319s use that gate. the sanding, at least in my mind, creates a very large FOD issue. yes, it's a safety issue as well. however, as nightmare pointed out, agents can possible damage aircraft if they can't stop the tugs in time. our agents are trained to stop the vehicle outside the "diamond of safety" so that they may test the brakes to ensure they would be able to stop.

my major argument is based on the fact that sand has no reason to be placed on the ramp. yes, passenger walkways may be sanded but that's all. has anyone here ever heard or seen parkign gates and ramps sanded? am i correct in arguing the FOD issue?


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

I know you asked rampers, but from a pilot's perspective - I agree with you.

Main difference between sand and wrenches is that sand makes smaller dings in the blades, and more of them. Sand can get deeper into the compressor and erode blades that you cannot see on a preflight.

That said, I don't know what the solution is. Tire chains on the tug? In my opinion deicing at the gate is the culprit and this is not the first time LGA (right?) has had a problem with the way they deice airplanes. (same airline, I"d guess. right?) Deicing at the gate is not the best plan for a number of reasons, one of them you are dealing with now.




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

We use hot sand at the hanger to keep things from getting to slick after the snow has been plowed. Seems to do the job well enough. The only problem is when things dry up and then you have clouds of sand getting blown around when aircraft taxi out. With all the deicing that is done at the terminal it seems to me that all sanding would do would be to make a big mess.

User currently offlineFrequentflykid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

I grew up and live on the east side of Cleveland in the snowbelt. We see lake effect snowstorms that rival Buffalo, but I have NEVER seen the Ohio Department of Transportation or any local municipality using sand. I have always seen the liquid deicer or the standard road salt. Down here at school in the Norfolk area they use sand all the time. Doesn't ever seem to work.

User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

They use sand on the roads here in Texas. It makes a mess until about September when they get it off the roads just in time for the one freeze of the year, where they dump a whole bunch of new sand.

User currently offlineContact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4275 times:

The trick about sanding is how you use it. More recent gritters, like the one we use on all operational surfaces at the airport, use a mix of warm sand (stored in a above zero indoor silo) and steam (!). The trick is to get the sand to freeze to the surface instantly. The mix is 200ml water pr square meter of sanded area. (very little ice bulid-up)

De-ice at the gate sounds like really bad idea, and creates a lot of issues.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4237 times:

my major argument is based on the fact that sand has no reason to be placed on the ramp. yes, passenger walkways may be sanded but that's all. has anyone here ever heard or seen parkign gates and ramps sanded? am i correct in arguing the FOD issue?

In Alaska.....oh yeah. Can't get around it, especially in areas of the state where there is a very pronounced freeze-thaw cycle during the winter, such as the Aleutian Islands.

Usually you want a course sand, really rough. Usually we didn't put it on for snow, but when Ice was on the ramp, since our cheap managment didn't want to buy a proper tug to move aircraft. It cost them less to risk damaging airplanes.

As far as the fod issue. I don't think you have much of a claim. Most of the risk I saw from sand where to low hanging propellor blades, such as on an Metro, erroding. I suppose you could have some issues with that and turbing blades, but sand is so fine that there isn't much surface area for an engine to pick up and as long at is is not frozen in a clump I would suspect the big issue would erosion of low hanging engines. I would point out that snow is also abrasive too.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

Out here since De-Icing is never an Issue,so there is no question of Sanding the ramp.
Although I agree on the FOD point of view.
I wonder how its in the Middle East when there is much more sand blowing around.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

I know you asked rampers, but from a pilot's perspective - I agree with you.


slamclick, i'm not only looking for a ramper's input. thanks for providing a pilot's perspectives.


As far as the fod issue. I don't think you have much of a claim. Most of the risk I saw from sand where to low hanging propellor blades, such as on an Metro, erroding. I suppose you could have some issues with that and turbing blades, but sand is so fine that there isn't much surface area for an engine to pick up and as long at is is not frozen in a clump I would suspect the big issue would erosion of low hanging engines. I would point out that snow is also abrasive too.

l-118, we fly beachcraft 1900s, saab 340s and dash 8s. our jets are not as prone to FOD because the engines are mounted up on the tail. (we fly EMB-145s and CRJ-200s.) but the gateein question is used by 737s and 319s regularly.



"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Why not use an oil dry substance to clean it up? The oil dry soaks up the liquid and is then swept up and disposed of. That's how fuel spills are cleaned up. I realize we're talking about a large area but it wouldn't be that large of an expense in materials and labor. $20 worth of oil dry and a couple of man hours can clean up a hell of a lot of liquid.

Dl757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineMeister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3937 times:

Sounds like chains or studded tires on the tug is the real way to go here if we want to eliminate FOD completely. Thats how MSP keeps going in snow and ice.

-Meister



Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Actually at Anchorage International they spread Urea rather then sand on the active runways as an ice melter.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

I don't think the problem that Cancidas is describing has to do with snow and ice. It has to do with glycol. Glycol on an otherwise clear ramp is extremely slippery. It acts like oil. In this case I think that oil dry or some type of absorbant would be the best solution. Unlike sand it is not left on the ground. It is collected and disposed of so there isn't any FOD issue. Now if the ramp was icy as well, chains would be the way to go. But after a good soaking in glycol the ramp probaly would be clear of ice and snow.

So Cancidas which was it glycol only or glycol and ice?

Dl757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Glycol on an otherwise clear ramp is extremely slippery. It acts like oil

Been there done that.

Ended up on my ass trying to get up to get some tools to fix a leak we had a deicer unit once

Plane's crew is standing there looking at me thinking, "What and idiot!"



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Tell me more on this Urea use to melt Ice.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

glycol only ...


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineContact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3836 times:

Urea is a nitrogen bases chemical, allmost identical to fertelizer. Most airfields that use it, use a standard rotary gritter to spread the Urea pellets on the runway



Temprature range for the Urea we use is down to -6 C (practical range)
Other types of chemicals can allso be pellets (ex Aviform), but others are liquid, (Potassiumacetate-based runway de-icers) and applied with a special sprayer truck.

On problem with urea, is a that since it's basically a fertelizer, runoff from hard surfaces on the airport will pollute rivers and lakes via surface water and sipage. "Clearway" (liquid) and others do not have that problem, but they cost A LOT, and is only viable at the largest airports.



Urea, N (CO(NH2)2)

"Urea is produced through the reaction of ammonia (NH3)and carbon dioxide (CO2). The two are reacted together at high pressure at temperatures between 132° and 182° C (270° and 360° F)."


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2694 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

There are some airports that do not use the sand due to environmental restrictions. JAC comes to mind. It is in Grand Teton National Park.

Nick


User currently offlineUAL Bagsmasher From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

We use urea and walnut shells, believe it or not, outside our hangar for traction when towing planes.

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3799 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting HAWK21M (reply 7):
Although I agree on the FOD point of view.
I wonder how its in the Middle East when there is much more sand blowing around.



I was wondering the same thing, HAWK21M. The air itself is a FOD hazard in windy, sandy conditions.


2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineContact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

FOD after sadning is a issue, but on many airport the problem arrise only when the snow melts, and the surface dries up. The only aircraft that has FOS issues during winter here, is the Harrier. (They have to use a special FOD-taxi procedure, and use a special departure for formations called "Belize Pick-up")

Sand removal in the spring is a lot of work, and it usually takes weeks up here before all aprons and TWYs are clean. (The sand is removed form the surface used by aircraft a lot earlier, but they use a special collector to pick up the sand that collect outside the edge lights, that is slow work)

After all several hundred tons of sand is used during one winter.  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

I've seen that Aircraft that arrive after being operated by a Middle East carrier have a different looking Wheel well surface,Very dry as if its been "Sand-blasted"  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineUAcsOKC From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

The only real way we have ever been able to clear glycol from a ramp is by flooding it with water. This of course has it's own hazards, but water doesn't stick to everything like glycol does. The best way is, of course, to not deice at the gate. The only time we deice at gates here is during ice storms, which can leave an inch of ice on the aircraft an cause long delays trying to remove it. But in this scenerio the glycol is welcome because it turns the ice to slush, allowing us to plow it away. The issue with vehicles, of course is to drive slow, and keep good tires on them, maybe run snow tires in winter. Sand or salt is a major no-no, as we get 737s and a320s. hope this helps.


I love the rumble of a 727 takeoff in the morning!
User currently offlineDTWOPS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Urea is banned at Detroit for the polution reasons stated in previous posts. One thing DTW does have which seems to be fairly rare is a contract a company who recovers glycol on the pavement with a vac truck. This would help out at the gate areas. Sand can be applied at gate areas upon request but it is usually so the push tugs can get a little more traction. Post storm clean up includes sweeping for excess sand.

User currently offlinePogo From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

LHR(EGLL) has a drainage system, so I am told, I agree with FOD issue, on some stands at LHR there are still boxes of grit which we can throw down in case of severe ice, if the airport gritters have not done a good enough job, also there used to be bags of sawdust on most stands which we used for any hydraulic or fuel leaks from any vehicles. However we would inform BAA so they could clean the 'dust with the sweeper/hoover trucks immediately after the aircraft had departed. Now we are seeing more of these vehicles doing the rounds cleaning more regularly, almost daily.


When in doubt give it a clout
25 HAWK21M : Thats how its done out here too. regds MEL
26 AirTran737 : In MKE we have a 50 gallon barrel of sand at every gate. ASIG also operates a glycol recovery vehicle, which when it show up does a good job at cleani
27 HAWK21M : Had any Experience of the Tarmec sinking under the Landing gear tires.We had one yesterday & struggled to Pushback.Eventually We had to lighten the Ai
28 Cancidas : need more info. can anyone etll me what FAR governs airline ramp operations, specifically how to deal with patches of ice on the ramp. my managers see
29 MissedApproach : That's all we use here, sand & salt are prohibited airside. Mainly they plow & use sweepers to remove snow & ice, & we usually use the urea near our
30 TristarSteve : Here at ARN most deicing is done on the gate. But as soon as the aircraft pushes back, a sweeper comes round and hoovers up all the glycol. This is fo
31 L-188 : Are you guys using Ethelene (spelling I know) Glycol or Polyproplene Glygol. Pretty much everything over here was switched to the Poly since it is mu
32 Pogo : At LHR BAA have gritting lorries which drive around placing 'grit' on the aprons and roadways, there used to be bins of grit on most stands which wer
33 OpsGuy : Cacidas, we use sodium formate on the runways and taxiways for deicing. It does the trick, but leaves the ground white. I can get you info on it if yo
34 HAWK21M : Any Pics. regds MEL
35 DC8FriendShip : Stud tires have their own dangers as the studs can come out and produce fod. Same with chains- they come apart and don't really help except in the sn
36 OpsGuy : HAWK21M, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner its been crazy this week at work. What would you like pictures of? The sodium formate comes in huge bag
37 Cancidas : OpsGuy, please if you could send along some more info.
38 HAWK21M : No probs.I was keen on noticing how the Sodium Formate looked like after spraying. regds MEL
39 CaptOveur : You may have already. I don't have a bottle in front of me, but I believe it is in Mountain Dew.
40 Starlionblue : Related icing question. I was on one of those dinky Beech 1900s yday. For deicing the engines were shut down. Is this some sort of turboprop thing or
41 L-188 : My bad. And if you haven't drunk it, you may have eaten it. I used to have a bag of strawberry muffin mix that used it as one of the ingredents.
42 GQfluffy : Turboprop. You just can't always see the edge of that dang thing. GQ deices both the Metro and the 1900D with engines off. I've seen Horizon deice th
43 HAWK21M : Are you serious.What Percentage. regds MEL
44 Post contains links Dash 80 : In OMA we use sand as an absolute last ditch effort because of the abrasiveness mentioned earlier. The sand is not like most sand used by street crews
45 Cancidas : every single turboprop that my company operated is deiced with the engines off and the apu running (if applicable.) that''s done that way simply becau
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