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707 Heavy?  
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

I'm listening to the Okinawa Approach frequency, and the American controllers keep referring to C-135s from the airbase at Naha as heavies. Does the 707 qualify as a heavy? And if so, does the DC-8 aslo fall under that category? (At least the stretched series would...)

Cheers
Mats


Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineUAcsOKC From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Depends on the gross weight of the aircraft. Some can be "Heavy" but not always qualify.


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User currently offlineC133 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2661 times:
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300,000 pounds and above, if I remember correctly, is designated as "heavy". 707-100 series, no, 300 series, yes. KC-135s? Didn't know they were that heavy, but you're hearing it.


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User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2631 times:

The 757s are also considered heavies for traffic separation purposes. But the magic number is 300K.

User currently offlineSanjet From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2608 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 3):
The 757s are also considered heavies for traffic separation purposes. But the magic number is 300K.

True, the 757 does have a MTOW less then 300,000lb but is considered heavy because of the wake turbulence it creates to allow speration.
The 707-320 does have a MTOW more than 300,000lb so yes and all dc-8 have a MTOW of more than 300,000lb so yes it's a heavy also.



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User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2580 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 3):
The 757s are also considered heavies for traffic separation purposes. But the magic number is 300K.

In the US, the threshold for a "heavy" was 300,000 lbs. for a long time, but was lowered to 255,000 lbs several years ago.

Some 757-200s have MGTOWs of less than 255,000 and are not technically heavies by definition, but are treated as such for separation purposes. Some customers took their 757-200s with optional MGTOWs above 255,000, and these, plus the 757-300s are technically heavies, but again, all 757s are treated as such.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2558 times:

Thanx for all your speedy replies!

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8341 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 3):
The 757s are also considered heavies for traffic separation purposes.

I don't know why people keep saying this. The 757-200 is given special attention by controllers for wake turbulance but it is not considered a heavy. Only ATA's 752s are heavies as they exceed 255,000 lbs. The 757-300 is, however, a true heavy.



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User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6895 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

"and all dc-8 have a MTOW of more than 300,000lb so yes it's a heavy also"

Maybe-- but a few years ago DC-8-51s were still flying, and they were less than 300K. Maybe they still are?


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8341 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting Timz (Reply 8):
Maybe-- but a few years ago DC-8-51s were still flying, and they were less than 300K. Maybe they still are?

There aren't exactly a whole bunch of -51s left, but if they're over 255,000 that's all that matters.



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User currently offlineC133 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2316 times:
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Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
In the US, the threshold for a "heavy" was 300,000 lbs. for a long time, but was lowered to 255,000 lbs several years ago.

To further complicate the issue, a working 777 captain friend just advised me that yes, the crossover point within the U.S. is 255,000 pounds, but everywhere else it's still 300,000. Next, someone will say that the U.S. is the only country that isn't metric!



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User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5724 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
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Quoting C133 (Reply 10):
Next, someone will say that the U.S. is the only country that isn't metric!

A whole new can of worms!! Don't get me started on that one. LOL

Chris



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User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

the C-135s are not 707s (pet peeve), they are just a tad "thinner" and shorter, but your question/point is taken.
In the E-3 (707-320) we are well over 300,000 and are always "Heavy" ditto the E-6 TACAMO, and E-8 J-STARS-- listening to various 135 tanker/tower ops I can honestly say I have heard "Heavy" for some but not all, so it is an interesting question on the weight. I will venture a guess the fuel offload inflight might play a part but don't know for sure.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Houston-first word spoken from the moon


User currently offlineLearpilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 814 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 7):
I don't know why people keep saying this. The 757-200 is given special attention by controllers for wake turbulance but it is not considered a heavy.

Isn't the whole point of the classifying of aircraft as "heavies" due to increased wake turbulence separation afforded to aircraft following them in the terminal area? Therefore the 757-200's that are below 255,000#, while not being a heavy by definition, are considered heavy in the way they are handled by ATC.

I will venture a guess the fuel offload inflight might play a part but don't know for sure.

It shouldn't matter what weight you are currently operating at. The determining factor is your max takeoff weight.

[Edited 2005-04-23 23:17:34]


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User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Quoting Learpilot (Reply 13):
Therefore the 757-200's that are below 255,000#, while not being a heavy by definition, are considered heavy in the way they are handled by ATC.

Unless its an ATA 752, you'll never hear "airline blah blah heavy" for a 757-200.

N


User currently offlineJfkaua From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1000 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1743 times:

why do ata's weigh more?

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

Quoting Jfkaua (Reply 15):
why do ata's weigh more?

In some ways, buying airplanes is like buying cars. There are standard features, and there are options. One of the opions available on the 757-200 was the ability to operate it at higher weights than the "standard" 757-200. Some airlines ordered theirs this way, and some didn't. Some operators may have some of both in their fleets....


User currently offlineLearpilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 814 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 14):
Unless its an ATA 752, you'll never hear "airline blah blah heavy" for a 757-200.

That's correct. Once again, they do not use "Heavy" in their call signs (I'm talking about your generic 757 like United and AA's), but ATC treats them like they are a heavy. For example, where a Regional Jet would only be required to follow a DC-9 or a A-320 by 3 miles, it would have to follow a 757-200 (non-heavy), as well as a heavy 747, ATA 757-200, 757-300, 767, 777, A-340, etc...all by 5 miles.



Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 days ago) and read 1669 times:

The KC-135R/T has a MTOGW of 330,000 lbs. The KC-135E has a MTOGW of 315,000 lbs. The KC-135A/Q has a maximum ramp weight of 301,600lbs, for a MTOGW of 299,600.

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