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Can You Do 270  
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

I was flying once (In the USA), and I heard ATC said 'United *** can you do 270' I wondered if he meant, heading, flight level, or airspeed. It seems a little bit sloppy RT to me, I just thought I would tell you this after reading the topic 'Right turn 095'.
Iain

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1053 times:

I'm guessing that ATC was referring to speed. Usually at Calgary ATC will tell aircraft being vectored in to land "cross "x" beacon at 160 or less". Hope that helps.

User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 1036 times:

I guess it was in referance to a very recent radio transmission. I know in the UK if they give you a heading they generally put a 5 on the end so you do not confuse it with flight level or airspeed, however I have not heard of this practice in the US.
Iain


User currently offlineDC-9CAPT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1026 times:

Depends on the circumstances, but...

I would say the case is more likely that they were asking for a two seventy turn.

A 270 turn is a method of extending your downwind before turning to base--especially if they were sequenced with slow traffic. I think this is a more manageable procudure than a 360 away from the airport or wicked s turns on final.


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1016 times:

See how confusing it is, we have 3 different pilots suggesting 3 different things, and any one of them could be right!
Iain


User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1003 times:

I guess that is why we fly, for the challenge of understanding ATC. Can you imagine the three of us up there in separate planes doing three different things to one sentence! Outstanding! hehe

User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1009 times:

It sounds like airspeed to me.

We all know that the airspeed limitations in a Class B (I'm expecting that this where you heard it) is 250 knots. Perhaps the controller wanted faster for sequencing and 20 knots faster doesn't sound totally off base.

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1000 times:

>>Can you imagine the three of us up there in separate planes doing three different things to one sentence<<

Imagen if we where all in the same plane trying to figure out what they want us to do!
Iain


User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 995 times:

"CRM? We don't need no stinkin' CRM!" oh yeah  Big thumbs up

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 987 times:

That sounds like an airspeed request to me... idont really see the point in asking if an aircraft can do a heading unless there is weather in the area.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMax Power From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 985 times:

"Sounds Like", " I guess it's", "Could Be".

Only one way to find out and who cares anyway??? Ask United or the Controller! If you heard what was said just before the "can you do 270" or just after then I suspect you would have your answer. You really think someone here heard it too??


User currently offlineFLY 8 From Austria, joined Dec 2000, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 986 times:

That´s the reason why I always force myself to repeat everything ATC advised me to do.

For example: Descent level 270. I say: Descent level 270. Not descent 270.

You always have to repeat what you are doing. Like Altitudes and headings.
Not just : "270"
That could be heading 270 or flight level 270 or speed 270 or a 270* turn.

In most of the cases it is clear what ATC means, but there can be fatal misunderstandings!!




yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 981 times:

MAx Power, my topic was about sloppy RT, not what they meant. The confusion in the forum proves my point! I have been reading some of your posts, and honestly I am not too impressed. We do not come here to have some uneducated person question everything we do!
Iain


User currently offlineMax Power From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 984 times:

Oh, well I will certainly be a much better person as soon as I am as smart as you. I keep trying. Not trying to impress you either, I ask you, how did you get such education and perceptive skills to know that I am uneducated ?

Now I'm impressed with you.


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 979 times:

Max Power your conduct says enough!
Iain


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3471 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 979 times:

>"... can you do 270?"

ATC is questioning the airplane to see if it can fly 270 knots indicated airspeed.

Heading query would by "... can you do a left (or right) 270 turn?"

For those who live in the ATC world, it is clear and concise -- just how we want it.  Big grin



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 976 times:

AAR don't you think it would be much safer to say knots, flight level, ect. As if you pick the wrong one, you might find yourself in a lot of trouble!
Iain


User currently offlineBuff From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 969 times:

See how confusing it is, we have 3 different pilots suggesting 3 different things, and any one of them could be right!
Iain


You haven't given enough information to give an accurate answer. One needs what was said before and after to make a proper response.

Best Regards,

Buff


User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 5 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 964 times:

Buff, the topic got a little of track, it was an exmaple of how confusing the radios can be. I am sure the crew knew exactly what the controller wanted them to do, or they would have asked questions!
Iain


User currently offlineJG From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (13 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 953 times:

Iain,

Not to put salt in an open wound but maybe Max Power's comments are not that far off in this thread.

You said yourself in your last post "Buff, the topic got a little of track, it was an exmaple of how confusing the radios can be. I am sure the crew knew exactly what the controller wanted them to do, or they would have asked questions!"

Much like walking into a room of women and the last word you hear is "sex." Hmmm, what did they mean? Sex with me, sex among themselves, drinking "Sex on the Beach," sex of one's parakeet, brickheadedness of the male sex?. I am just one person, not 3, and I came up with all of these myself. (not proud of that fact)

Often controllers and pilots engage in conversations that can only be understood in context. If you were privy to only a small part of this request, of course it would be confusing. The request was probably crystal clear to those involved. Unless I have horribly misunderstood the original post, you should not waste your time with all of the maybe's, whatif's, etc. as Max suggested. He may not deserve the support but he is right to a point. (Max, I feel your flames a comming... don't bother)

JG






User currently offlineWilcharl From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (13 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 959 times:

"I am sure the crew knew exactly what the controller wanted them to do, or they would have asked questions! "

So often a failure in communication occurs, Look at the Avianca 707 that became a glider and crashed into Long Island. You can not always assume that a person is going to question something, more often or not a human will go with what they expect to here.. Human factors are always involved in any incidnet/accidnet and a failure to communicate is often there...
the classic:

Takeoff Power

Does that mean set the throttle to take off thrust
or Take the power off and take the power back to idle as in taking off power

Look at Tenierief (i kant spel) Well seasoned old man van, KLM's poster child of a captain, whoops! Thought they said it was clear to take off, guess not kinda had another 747 sitting there...

Never ever assume that someone knows what you mean, and never expect somone to question you if you give them unclear directions.


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (13 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 930 times:

There once was a First Officer who came to work very depressed because his wife was going to leave him.

Anyhow he and the Captain complete the preflight checks and paperwork. The passengers are then loaded aboard and the doors are closed. They taxi out to the runway and get immediate clearence to take-off.

Shortly after rotation the Captain turns to his First Officer and says, "cheer up" and the First Officer felt better.

Or so the story goes...

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineAero42 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 925 times:

I'm almost positve that that would be a request for a 270 degree turn. An inquiry to see if an aircraft could do 270 would seem odd. Why wouldn't they just ask, "can you do 300," or something like that, you know, rounding up. On the other hand, I've heard about pilots being forced to do 270 turns. It's happened when pilots at smaller airports are on downwind, and faster commuter aircraft on on straight-in long finals, and ATC just needs the pilot of the smaller craft, usually a piper or cessna or whatever, to take a little longer before transitioning to the base leg. Normally ATC would just tell you to extend your downwind, but if there's terrain in the way or some structure you're not allowed to overfly, they'd make you do a 270 turn to provide adequate separation.

User currently offlineBuff From Australia, joined Mar 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (13 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 923 times:

I have to stand by my statement above. That is partly because I've been listening/participating in pilot/ATC communications for nearly 25 years.

If you want confusion, try flying into New York where there are three different operators using the same flight number. Add a fictional request for "XYZ 270, maintain 270" Is he talking to you, or "ABC270" or "KLM270"; is he referring to flight number, altitude, speed, heading, what?

When you operate into these busy centres (sp. = Canadian, eh?) you have to keep your ears open, and a great many times, your mouth shut. ATC can be a very intimidating experience to the weak at heart!

You have to listen good, and listen right!!!

Best Regards,

Buff


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (13 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 918 times:

270 seems a little odd for a turn. ATC usually instructs turns by saying either "...do a 180...", "...give me a 360...", or "...give me two(+) 360s..."

I have never heard them give 270 for spacing turn. It would require presious few seconds of math on behalf of the pilot when you have to immediately roll into that turn. Whereas with a 180, you just glance down at the DG and see where the half mark is and roll out there.

However, I could see this if the controller wanted the aircraft to turn to a heading of 270. That wasn't what was asked though.

What was, was "...can you do 270?" That implies airspeed because do is a verb and it's answering 270 (the subject that it's modifying). I hope I'm right about this, it's been a long time since I had gramma'!  Big grin

- Neil Harrison


25 Modesto2 : Sounds like speed to me. It's not that confusing if you know the context that the request was stated in. If you were in the plane, I'm sure you would
26 Post contains images AAR90 : Ianhol- >AAR don't you think it would be much safer to say knots, >flight level, ect. As if you pick the wrong one, you might >find yourself in a lot
27 Post contains links DC-9CAPT : RT....RT....RT! It all depends on the context--true. But there is sometimes an inherent need for clarification from the controller what he/she really
28 Post contains images Iainhol : AAR I think with more experience I will be able to anticipate what the controllers are needing me to do more, however right now I like it as simple as
29 XFSUgimpLB41X : I have heard a 270 degree spacing turn for changing runways at the same time as getting spacing. That is very rare though. I still think it is an airs
30 FLY 8 : "with more expierence I will be able to anticipate what the conrollers are needing me to do" wright, you well get a feeling for that. But ATC should a
31 XNV : Regarding clarification - I saw a case examined on a TV show where the crew received a descent clearance - I can't remember the exact details - I thin
32 Buff : Here is an example of when you might get an instruction to execute a 270 degree turn. To begin with, if you do a 180 degree turn, your heading will re
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