TUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1829 posts, RR: 7 Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4932 times:
I remember a post a while back in the civil aviation forum that said the Boeing 757 was the first plane to have a "glass cockpit." How is this possible being that the 757 was developed in the 70s and introduced in the 80s? Did the first 757s just have a 727 cockpit and were later updated?
If so, what was the first plane to have a glass cockpit?
Aogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 923 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4921 times:
Definitely not....I wasn't in the biz when the 757 was introduced, but the current derivative of the glass cockpit is very close to what was designed in the original type certificate. As I understand it, its late 70s technology that was introduced in early 80s....82 perhaps??
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 818 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4872 times:
If I recall correctly, the first 767s had a traditional non-glass cockpit, but this was quickly discontinued. Since the 767 interestingly flew before the 757, I'm assuming that the 757 never flew with round gauges.
Interestingly, the first airliner that was supposed to have a glass cockpit was to be the 2707 SST...but sadly that never materialised.
Aogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 923 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4849 times:
I wasn't aware that the 767 flew before the 757.....interesting..
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8950 posts, RR: 45 Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4766 times:
According to Wikipedia (don't know how reliable they are), the A-320 was the first with a "fully featured glass cockpit rather than the hybrid versions found in A310, Boeing 757 and Boeing 767". I've no idea which hybrid came first but I'm sure there are many here who know or can work it out.
Philsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4745 times:
The first 767-200 was in service with UA 09/08/82 while the first in service date for the 757 was 01/01/83 with EA. As far as the comments about a "steam gauge" cockpit v. glass that's a new one on me.
I do know some of the 76s ordered for Australia were 3 man cockpits due to a labor issue there. However, those were just a handful. The 767 cockpit delivered to UA is basically the same as it is today, same holds true for the 75. There has been upgrades to the displays and FMC, but that's about it.
OldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3092 posts, RR: 66 Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4723 times:
All 757's used a glass cockpit. There were no "round dial" versions.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
DesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7526 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4662 times:
From the pictures it is pretty clear that the 757/767 has a glass cockpit with the EFIS/EICAS displays. They are just older and do not integrate as much information as the newer systems first seen on the A320 and 747-400.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
TUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1829 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4629 times:
Did they actually use LCDs back in the 80s when they started with the "glass cockpits," or were they more like a TV display (i.e. Cathode Ray Tube)?
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6064 posts, RR: 27 Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4594 times:
TUNisia,
They were originally CRTs. I believe LCDs started with A340-500/600 and the 777-200.
~Vik
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
DeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 4540 times:
CRT's on the 75/76 for sure. Whenever you switch power sources (i.e. ground power to APU), all the CRT's go blank for a second, then reappear a bit smaller than they were, and refocus themselves....good ol 80's 767's
Love the LCD's on the 777 and 738...very clear and crisp.
TUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1829 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4494 times:
Thanks for the responses. It was hard to imagine an LCD being available in the 80s.. that's why I always questioned the "glass cockpit" thing. Have all the 757s and 767 from the 80s been retrofitted with LCDs? Or are there still some flying with CRTs?
AvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4490 times:
Quoting TUNisia (Reply 13): Have all the 757s and 767 from the 80s been retrofitted with LCDs? Or are there still some flying with CRTs?
Haha, you must be joking. We have a fleet of about 25 or so 757/767's here at BY and they are all still very much in the dark ages of CRT's. I don't think there is any real need to change them so they don't get changed and that is pretty much the way this industry works unfortunately.
Infact I don't know of any 757/767's that have LCD screens, but the newest one I have worked on is about 3 years old now so maybe the newest one might have.
TUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1829 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4485 times:
Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 14): Haha, you must be joking. We have a fleet of about 25 or so 757/767's here at BY and they are all still very much in the dark ages of CRT's. I don't think there is any real need to change them so they don't get changed and that is pretty much the way this industry works unfortunately.
Infact I don't know of any 757/767's that have LCD screens, but the newest one I have worked on is about 3 years old now so maybe the newest one might have.
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 818 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4475 times:
Quoting Philsquares (Reply 6): As far as the comments about a "steam gauge" cockpit v. glass that's a new one on me
Probably new to you Phil because my source wasn't all that great, and as such, made a butcher's out of the truth.
Here's the real deal:
Both the 757 and the 767 prototypes flew with glass cockpits.
Boeing originally designed the 757/67 flight deck with electronic displays and digital avionics, but initially, the airlines did not like the idea, so Boeing switched the design back to a standard electromechanical flight deck.
As time progressed, demand for EFIS increased substantially, and in 1978, very late in the design phase of the two aircraft (parts were soon to be cut), Boeing re-integrated the EFIS into the 757/67 flight deck.
If anyone is interested, my source for this info is a very fascinating article by NASA on technology in aircraft flight decks:
Citation X From Malaysia, joined Feb 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4450 times:
What about the computers used in early 80s 757/767/A310 etc and the A320s? Are the computers upgraded to faster CPUs on todays A320s and B767s? Just curious....
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 810 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4414 times:
Honeywell produces the FMS that's used in the Boeing 747/757/767/777 (737 uses a different FMS I guess), MD 11/80/90, Airbus 300/310/318/319/320/321/330/340, Fokker 70/100.
Looking at their first presentation (the Pegasus Presentation), it looks like difference between the computers running the FMS in today's A320 and yesterdays 757/767 is not very different...
Running on an AMD 29050 processor at 22 or 24Mhz for yesterdays 757/767 versus 32Mhz for todays aircraft. 32megs of RAM for yesterday and today.
For the future they look like they're offering an upgrade to a 64Mhz AMD 29050 and 64-128megs of RAM
But I think Pegasus came out in the late 1990's, so I think that's the latest iteration of computers out there.
[edit]I'll add as a point of reference, if the 757/767 came out in the mid-1980's, I think the leading PC computer processor during the mid-1980's was the Intel 8086 used in the IBM PC with 640K RAM with the 80286 coming out at 12/16Mhz. So the AMD 29050 powering the FMCs in the mid-1980's at 22Mhz is pretty fast for it's time. So comparing it to today's consumer PC processors running at 3+GHz is not really a valid comparison.
[Edited 2005-06-09 14:50:11]
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 15323 posts, RR: 91 Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4338 times:
A320s today are delivered with LCDs, but also debuted with CRTs in 1988.
The last 75 off the line still had CRTs. Only the 767-400 has LCDs, others are delivered with CRTs.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8950 posts, RR: 45 Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4337 times:
Quoting MrChips (Reply 17): Probably new to you Phil because my source wasn't all that great, and as such, made a butcher's out of the truth.
Not as bad as my double-whammy. Not only did my source turn out to be duff too, but I managed to transpose the "First" and "757" in the header - I thought the question was whether or not the 757 was the first with a glass cockpit. I'm extracting my foot now.
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