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Winglets On Elevator?  
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

Hi all,

I just thought about the possibility to add winglets on the horizontal stabilizer.
I think at least for (over)longhaul airliners, it would lead to a reduced fuel burn, since the same might happen as on the wings.

What do you guys think about? Was this tested before in windchannel tests?
Are there some guys from aerodynamic engineering, which could let us know more about it?

Regards,
Patrick


Aviation! That rocks...
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

I asked the same question a while back. Check out here:

Winglets On Tail? (by 777DadandJr Mar 31 2005 in Tech Ops)

Russ



My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

Russ,
thanks for the link. Didn't see that one.  Smile
I think though, there still some questions left, especially regarding longhaul aircrafts.



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineGlacote From France, joined Jun 2005, 409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

A properly designed wing is always better without winglets. You put winglets whenever:
- you want to update an existing wing profile without going through a complete revamp
- you have geometrical constraints (e.g. 80m for the A380)

Thus you could try to add winglets on an outdated elevator but the cost savings vs a full revamp and the expected gains are not worth it - you either rebuild a whole new elevator or you do nothing at all.


User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3148 times:

Glacote, thanks a lot for the information.

Was in your opinion the 330/340 wing not properly designed?


Regards,
Patrick



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineHiFi From Brazil, joined Apr 2005, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

The horizontal stabilizer produces much less lift than the wing, probably not enough to be winglet-worthy.


no commercial potential
User currently offlineFly727 From Mexico, joined Jul 2003, 1789 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3037 times:

Although not winglets per-se these two examples use to enhance lateral stability these devices in the horizontal stabilizers:


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RM  Smile



There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2943 times:
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Quoting Glacote (Reply 3):
A properly designed wing is always better without winglets. You put winglets whenever:
- you want to update an existing wing profile without going through a complete revamp
- you have geometrical constraints (e.g. 80m for the A380)

Wrong!!! Winglets are just nonplanar span extensions. Any wing will benefit from a span extension.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Quoting Glacote (Reply 3):
A properly designed wing is always better without winglets.



Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
Any wing will benefit from a span extension.

...neither one of these (sweeping) statements are true in all cases-- there are too many other factors to consider.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2903 times:

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 4):
Was in your opinion the 330/340 wing not properly designed?

Airbus designed the A330/A340 without winglets, but implemented them during an extensive redefinition when IAE dropped the ball big time with the IAE SuperFan engine. Airbus was counting on the SuperFan to meet their performance goals, and when the only engine available was the CFM56-5, they needed enhancing features to avoid missing their targets.

Winglets went on.


User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Certain 747's have them.  Wink


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User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Hi guys,
thanks a lot for your opinions.
Lets say we add winglets at the stabilizer of a 772LR or a 345. Would the a/c need more fuel, same, or less for about the same distance? (Weight shouldn't be that much, since we have composites)

Regards,
Patrick



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting HiFi (Reply 5):
The horizontal stabilizer produces much less lift than the wing, probably not enough to be winglet-worthy.

Horizontal stabilizers don't produce lift, they produce down force.


User currently offlineAbbs380 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

AsstChief Mark, Your pic is a 747 Shuttle carrier. I think these are actually extra vertical stabilizers which are out of the wake of the shuttle when its being carried. I dont think they are intended as a performance enhancement, just extra stability.

User currently offlineKeta From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 7):
Wrong!!! Winglets are just nonplanar span extensions. Any wing will benefit from a span extension.

That's what I was going to say  Wink

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 12):
Horizontal stabilizers don't produce lift, they produce down force.

That's like saying that they produce negative lift, the effect is the same.

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 11):
Lets say we add winglets at the stabilizer of a 772LR or a 345. Would the a/c need more fuel, same, or less for about the same distance? (Weight shouldn't be that much, since we have composites)

Depending on the aircraft's CG, speed, weight, altitude... the stabilizers produce lift, negative lift or no lift at all. What kind of winglets would you put? On the wings, the lift is always an upwards force, but on the stabilizers it can be downwards. Kind of tough to design a winglet that would benefit in both cases. Maybe wingtip fences could do that?
I'm not sure, but I'm afraid the vortex created are small, since the aerodynamic force is not very big. The weight is a thing you always have to take into account. I guess the aerodynamic savings would not be sufficient to justify the increase on weight.



Where there's a will, there's a way
User currently offlineHiFi From Brazil, joined Apr 2005, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2619 times:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 10):
Certain 747's have them

I guess that's more related to stability than aerodynamics...

Quoting Keta (Reply 14):
Quoting SATL382G (Reply 12):
Horizontal stabilizers don't produce lift, they produce down force.

That's like saying that they produce negative lift, the effect is the same.

thanks.



no commercial potential
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2543 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

The best way to reduce the drag of the horizontal stabiliser is to have it produce as little lift (and so induced drag) as possible. The less lift is produced, the less a winglet will help.

Endplate fins used to be used a lot in aircraft design, in the search for better efficiency. In the days before winglets, endplates were known to reduce induced drag, but usually their weight and form drag overcame any real advantage.


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Apart from the endplate effect, part of the idea was to put the fin in the propwash to improve the rudder effectiveness (as with the Lodestar above). Not such a good idea with a jet  Smile



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
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