Nohag From Belgium, joined Apr 2004, 86 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7350 times:
I was wondering which regulations determined a plane to be a one-pilot plane or a two-pilot plane. The second part of the question being which plane is currently the largest to fly on your own (legally) (jet and/or prop).
eg You have some millions to spend and want to buy yourself a nice business-jet (or prop) to fly your friends and familly to all the nice places all over the world. (I think i'm dreaming a bit to much   What type of plane could you buy to fly legally as the sole pilot and some (non-paying/non-commercial) passengers?
As I think it has something to do with al those FAA and JAR rules I posted this question in this forum instead of the Civil Aviation Forum.
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." E. Roosevelt
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 69 Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7328 times:
Well, if you want to play John Travolta just hire a pilot. They come cheap compared with the operating costs of large airplanes.
I'm not really up to date on the regs but it used to be that you could fly a plane with nine or less passenger seats in scheduled service with one pilot and a functioning autopilot. I did that for a while. More than that and two pilots are required even if there is nothing for the other guy to do.
It was military but the biggest single-pilot production aircraft I've ever seen was the Douglas AD Skyraider. Almost as big as, and heavier than a DC-3. I'd post a picture but the photo database seems to be broken this morning.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
727EMflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7089 times:
IIRC all turbo jet powered aircraft must have two pilots. I don't remember the manufacturer, but there was a new small design mentioned in the "engine to power car sized jet" thread from a couple months ago that was trying to get a single pilot cert. I think it was only a four-place design.
Citation501SP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 204 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7064 times:
Some Cessna Citation 500s all 501s and the 551 models are single pilot certified. The Citation Jet CJ1 is single pilot certified, I'm not 100% about the CJ2 or CJ3. Nealy all the Business class Turboprops can be flown single pilot, however most Charter companies or the business that owns the aircraft fly with two pilots for insurance reasons.
12,500 lbs MTOW is the cutoff point, but there are exceptions, later. Aircraft under 12,500lbs can in most instances legally be flown by one pilot, over 12,501lbs, MTOW require 2 pilots. The original Lear 23 was under the 12,500lb limit for single pilot certification but the complexity of the aircraft required it be certified for 2 pilots, the intent was to certify the Lear 23 for single pilot operations.
For Pilots to fly a single pilot jet the trick here is you require a type rating for the aircraft, and you must get a single pilot type rating. Hey you even need a Type Rating to fly a DC-3.
As is the case for flying any aircraft. Sometimes its better to have more than one set of eyes, ears, and hands in the cockpit.
Sanjet From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 180 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7009 times:
501SP is right. I recall some lear 45's that were also flown SP. There are some requirements such as it is mandatory to have a 2 axis auto pilot along with other things. As stated, the insurance cost is so high for single pilot ops that most companies just add an f/o.
Personally I will never fly on any high performance aircraft that is only flown by one pilot.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6980 times:
SlamClick, I think I have the rare chance to correct you here . The Lockheed A-12 Blackbird is the largest single pilot aircraft I can think of, at roughly 102' long and 140,000lbs, and in fact it had only one person on the entire plane. Its larger siblings the YF-12 and SR-71 still were single pilot, though they had back seat weapons officers (WSO and RSO respectively).
And was the A-5 Vigilante single pilot? I can't recall.
The CJ2 and CJ3 are also certified single pilot, at least for private operations. The 550 and 560 can be flown single pilot, as long as the plane is configured for SP, and the pilot is qualified. Usually, however the insurance rates for single pilot operation is high enough that most people use two pilots (co-pilots are cheap).
Here is the largest Citation that can legally be flown, as far as I know.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2311 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6949 times:
Quoting Nohag (Thread starter): I was wondering which regulations determined a plane to be a one-pilot plane or a two-pilot plane.
First of all, the number of pilots is an operational rule, and not a design or certification rule, therefore FAR Part 23 or 25 does not apply.
FAR Part 135 covers Commuter and On-Demand Operations (Commercial operations).
FAR 135.99 states Composition of flight crew.
(a) No certificate holder may operate an aircraft with less than the minimum flight crew specified in the aircraft operating limitations or the Aircraft Flight Manual for that aircraft and required by this part for the kind of operation being conducted.
(b) No certificate holder may operate an aircraft without a second in command if that aircraft has a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seat, of ten seats or more.
This is what allows the smaller Cessna Citations (Model 560 and lower) to fly single pilot for commercial operations.
In Europe, the JAR OPS regulations are the equivalent to FAR Part 135. They require dual pilots for commercial operations with greater than nine seats or greater than 12,500 lb. Therefore some Citations like the Models 525B (CJ3), 550, 560 in Europe cannot operate single pilot commercially.
G550 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6833 times:
Quoting CitationJet (Reply 9): First of all, the number of pilots is an operational rule, and not a design or certification rule, therefore FAR Part 23 or 25 does not apply.
So based on what you said here, I could fly a 747 single pilot under Part 91? I dont think so. Yes part 135 and part 121 specify the number of crew required, but the aircraft certification determines this as well.
G550 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6554 times:
Quoting Woodreau (Reply 13): The Beech 1900 airliner is type certificated as a single pilot aircraft for Part 91 operations. 19 seats, MTOW 17,120lbs. But operating it under 121/135 requires two pilots.
The Beech 1900 aircraft can also be flown single pilot under part 135 in addition to part 91. Examples of this are most cargo carriers that fly cargo in the 1900.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6422 times:
So far nobody has bettered my answer, so I take it that the A-12/SR-71/YF-12 Blackbird family are the largest single pilot airplanes to have gone into production (well the YF-12 didn't get past prototype, but still).
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2311 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
Quoting G550 (Reply 12): So based on what you said here, I could fly a 747 single pilot under Part 91?
No you cannot fly a 747 single pilot, but that is because of the operational requirements in FAR Part 91, not the design requirements in Part 25.
For Private operations (Part 91) the co-pilot requirements are specified in FAR 91.531, which says
For large aircraft (Part 25) a second in command is required.
For Turbojet powered aircraft and commuter aircraft based on number of pilots required under the Type Certificate.
There is only one paragraph in FAR Part 23 & 25 that addresses minimum flight crew requirements - FAR 23.1523 and 25.1523. Part 23 & 25 do not quantify a minumum number of pilots required.
The minimum required pilots are documented on the aircraft's type certificate data sheet.
FAR 25.1523 Minimum flight crew. The minimum flight crew must be established so that it is sufficient for safe operation, considering--
(a) The workload on individual crewmembers;
(b) The accessibility and ease of operation of necessary controls by the appropriate crewmember; and
(c) The kind of operation authorized under Sec. 25.1525.
The criteria used in making the determinations required by this section are set forth in Appendix D.
Appendix D to FAR Part 25 states that the criteria for determining the minimum flight crew is:
(a) Basic workload functions
(b) Workoad factors
(c) Kinds of operations authorized.
The determination of the kind operation authorized requires consideration of the operating rules under which the airplane will be operated.
However, FAR 91.531(b) allows the FAA to issue of letter of authorization for an airplane to be flown single pilot if the aircraft is design and certicated with only one pilot station. Highly unlikely for the 747.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 69 Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6382 times:
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 7): SlamClick, I think I have the rare chance to correct you here
I've lost the will to live.
Good call HaveBlue at least if, at one "each" it can be considered "production."
The F-105 is a contender.
Good call on the Viggie. Gorgeous airplane too, I might add. Had one go over my head inverted about a hundred feet above me once, just north of CEW. The pilot waved! (I was flying a T-42)
Well, we do have it on good authority (another member with many years experience in transport aircraft) that "the copilot's job is to do what the captain tells him" so that makes the 747 pretty much a solo operation in some parts of the world.
Beech 1900 notwithstanding (whatever the hell that means) the type certificate for all jetliners I've flown specifies in the AFM Limitations, a minimum crew of two pilots.
edit: True confession time here. My first leg in a jet airliner I was so far behind the aircraft that I would not have even been a witness! The training captain, an able hand for sure, pretty well soloed that one.
[Edited 2005-07-23 01:04:33]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 932 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6364 times:
Anybody know where you can buy a YF-12/A-12/SR-71 legally? That's what the original question was:
What was the biggest plane you could buy and fly single pilot legally?
The military aircraft are single pilot airplanes, like the F-15 (60,000lb +) and some of them are pretty large, but I don't think you can buy any of them unless they've been demilitarized. Do they sell F-4's on the market? I don't think you can buy an SR-71 on the market anywhere. You can get MiG-15/17's how big are they?
The 1900 type certificate only specifies one pilot as a minimum. At 17120lb GTOW, that's the biggest one I'm aware of that you could buy off the street and fly it single pilot - you do have to have a type rating. But I do have to admit, I haven't been looking too far or long, so there may be something bigger... All of the other airliners I've looked at specify two pilots, even the bigger Citation jets like the Citation X, Sovereign, Bravo, all require 2 pilots.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6327 times:
Other people brought up military planes as well. And while you'll never be able to buy a Blackbird, they were in production (30 or so SR's and 12 or so A-12's) and were flown by civilians (NASA leased a few for decades). And there are multiple F-104's on the civilian market, and at least one flyable and active civilian F-4 Phantom on the airshow circuit (Bob Collins Foundation). So, maybe the F-4 would qualify as far as the biggest one that has been bought by a civilian that can be flown single pilot.