ScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4611 posts, RR: 63 Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7922 times:
I really appreciated the intelligent discussion on Tech/Ops after the Air France crash, so I am curious to hear thoughts on this incident from the Tech/Ops gang.
To me, this incident seems quite odd and puzzling and sounds reminiscent of the Payne Stewart crash. Any insights from you guys who fly or have flown or worked on the 737?
We're lying in the gutter but we're looking at the stars
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10039 posts, RR: 75 Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7923 times:
I have flown the 737 but at this moment my ignorance on this crash is total.
The report of only one pilot on the flight deck, if true is very puzzling. If the masks drop out, it is probably the best duty of the pilots to don their own masks and get the plane safely to a lower altitude. My personal favorite "lower altitude" is field elevation of the nearest suitable airport but you know what a cautious guy I am.
If I learn anything I will pontificate as usual.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 15102 posts, RR: 69 Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7877 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1): I have flown the 737 but at this moment my ignorance on this crash is total.
The report of only one pilot on the flight deck, if true is very puzzling. If the masks drop out, it is probably the best duty of the pilots to don their own masks and get the plane safely to a lower altitude. My personal favorite "lower altitude" is field elevation of the nearest suitable airport but you know what a cautious guy I am.
If I learn anything I will pontificate as usual.
Pontificate away. We enjoy it.
One thing I have already noticed about this crash is the large number of question marks. Of course, we can't know if anything we hear is true at this point, but here's what I noticed.
- Why was only one pilot in the cockpit?
- Why did they not descend?
- If the pilots had managed to don their masks, why were they overcome? Contaminated oxygen?
- If one of the pilots was in the cabin (as the text message seems to indicate), why was this?
- Also, if he was blue in the face but could still stand, why didn't he take the controls?
- What made the plane start descending? Was it the pilots or lack of fuel? According to http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050814-0, normally a reliable source, the plane flew for at least an hour from the time it entered Greek airspace (where ATC did not manage to contact the plane) until it crashed. This could well be more than the fuel reserves.
- Did pax oxygen run out? I hear there's only about 10-15 minutes of oxygen in the system.
The AF358 crash did not have this many mysteries. It's not like it has been solved, but I will speculate the cause of that one will not be too strange. This Helios crash will be one of those much talked about ones, like Egyptair 767 or Sioux City.
[Edited 2005-08-14 21:08:54]
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 30162 posts, RR: 61 Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7847 times:
I work on the B737s Mx.It would be Interesting to see what the Investigations reveal.
The B737 is an excellent Aircraft.
Too little Info & too many rumours to actually understand the facts.
regds
MEL
Kaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4125 posts, RR: 33 Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7826 times:
Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 3):
is it not true that whenever one pilot leaves the flight deck the other must wear his/her oxygen mask until the other pilot returns?
I dont think so...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
Mr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2777 posts, RR: 18 Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7807 times:
Hi guys.
Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 3): is it not true that whenever one pilot leaves the flight deck the other must wear his/her oxygen mask until the other pilot returns?
>> Matt72033, yes that's true for USA registered aircraft if the aircraft is operating at altitudes above 25,000 feet MSL ... according to the info below that was posted by Jetguy on Nov 18, 2003. The last paragraph (#4), specifically answers your question and is from this discussion link.
"As far as the various O2 regulations go, the US FARs apply to any civilian US registered aircraft be it turbojet, turboprop, or piston-powered, single or multi-engine. As far as who has to wear what and when, I'll let you read it for yourself.
For non-commercial (Part 91) operations:
§ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen.
(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry --
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;
(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and
(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.
(b) Pressurized cabin aircraft. (1) No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry with a pressurized cabin --
(i) At flight altitudes above flight level 250 unless at least a 10-minute supply of supplemental oxygen, in addition to any oxygen required to satisfy paragraph (a) of this section, is available for each occupant of the aircraft for use in the event that a descent is necessitated by loss of cabin pressurization; and
(ii) At flight altitudes above flight level 350 unless one pilot at the controls of the airplane is wearing and using an oxygen mask that is secured and sealed and that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude of the airplane exceeds 14,000 feet (MSL), except that the one pilot need not wear and use an oxygen mask while at or below flight level 410 if there are two pilots at the controls and each pilot has a quick-donning type of oxygen mask that can be placed on the face with one hand from the ready position within 5 seconds, supplying oxygen and properly secured and sealed.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(1)(ii) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave the controls of the aircraft when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 350, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to that crewmember's station.
The following applies specifically to commercial air-taxi (Part 135) operators, but the regulations for airline operations (Part 121) are similar:
§ 135.89 Pilot requirements: Use of oxygen.
(a) Unpressurized aircraft. Each pilot of an unpressurized aircraft shall use oxygen continuously when flying --
(1) At altitudes above 10,000 feet through 12,000 feet MSL for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration; and
(2) Above 12,000 feet MSL.
(b) Pressurized aircraft. (1) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated with the cabin pressure altitude more than 10,000 feet MSL, each pilot shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(2) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated at altitudes above 25,000 feet through 35,000 feet MSL, unless each pilot has an approved quick-donning type oxygen mask --
(i) At least one pilot at the controls shall wear, secured and sealed, an oxygen mask that either supplies oxygen at all times or automatically supplies oxygen whenever the cabin pressure altitude exceeds 12,000 feet MSL; and
(ii) During that flight, each other pilot on flight deck duty shall have an oxygen mask, connected to an oxygen supply, located so as to allow immediate placing of the mask on the pilot's face sealed and secured for use.
(3) Whenever a pressurized aircraft is operated at altitudes above 35,000 feet MSL, at least one pilot at the controls shall wear, secured and sealed, an oxygen mask required by paragraph (b)(2)(i) of this section.
(4) If one pilot leaves a pilot duty station of an aircraft when operating at altitudes above 25,000 feet MSL, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use an approved oxygen mask until the other pilot returns to the pilot duty station of the aircraft."
Here's the Helios Airways B737-31S (5B-DBY) that sadly crashed. May they all "Rest In Peace."
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20143 posts, RR: 57 Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7770 times:
Very sad to see such a tragedy almost immediately following the lucky outcome of the recent AF accident.
The same aircraft apparently suffered a loss of pressurization last december shortly before landing, oxygen masks dropping and all; According to the report (newscast on N24) they made a successful emergency landing back then and the problem was supposedly "rectified" immediately after that.
But together with the reported "problems with air conditioning" at the beginning of this last flight, the SMS ("we´re freezing") from one of the passengers and the bodies apparently found with oxygen masks strapped on, it´s difficult to not think of an AC-related malfunction, possibly followed by procedural mistakes if I remember the standard procedures correctly...
Is it possible that the malfunction was misinterpreted as a simple temperature regulation failure without recognizing the loss of pressure? Hard to imagine...
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10039 posts, RR: 75 Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7655 times:
Anybody know the ground elevation at the point of impact?
I'm curious (morbidly) whether any of the occupants were conscious. I didn't think Greece had any mountains over ten thousand feet but then, I've never been there.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
CX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6129 posts, RR: 57 Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7550 times:
Does anyone have approach charts for the STAR that the crew would have programmed into the FMC on that day? I am curious to know whether the aircraft flew the entire approach in LNAV and then entered the holding pattern albeit entirely at a higher altitude.
Also, does anyone actually know what altitude they were at? The reports make no mention of whether the F16s formated on the 737 during descent, or whether it stayed at cruise altitude until running out of fuel (assuming this is what happened). There are eyewitness reports of the aircraft flying low, escorted by fighters. I was under the assumption that the aircraft remained at cruise altitude until flameout then stalled and crashed, but then it would not really have been flying low for eyewitnesses to see. One even thought it was a VIP flight!
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8937 posts, RR: 65 Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7533 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1): If the masks drop out, it is probably the best duty of the pilots to don their own masks and get the plane safely to a lower altitude.
That's what really baffles me. Isn't it safe to assume that any individual trained to fly the 737 must be aware of how critical it is to don the oxygen mask ASAP when there's a pressurization problem?
If so, the next question is - why didn't either pilot don their mask the instant the pressurization problem occured?
Let's hope A) we learn valuable lessons from this crash, and B) those lessons help save lives in the future.
>> Aviation-Safety.net says the B737 crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens near Gammatikos (I haven't found that city/town on a map yet). Apparently the flight was cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, but I don't know if the jet was at that altitude when the problems started.
Dehowie From Australia, joined Feb 2004, 1026 posts, RR: 44 Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7509 times:
Got a question for 73 drivers out there.
Does the 733 have an audible warning for cabin altitude excursion??
I'd imagine it would certainly set off a master warning but is there an audible alarm with it?
Darren
CX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6129 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7497 times:
On the news they are saying that multiple systems failures may have occured. This is possible, but perhaps the most simple reason is that the crew O2 didn't work? End of story. Crew procedures are to get the O2 masks on and check the mask and establish communications through the mask with the other pilot and then to immediately initiate an emergency descent while the other pilot releases the pax O2 as a backup to the automatic drop of masks.
IF the crew O2 failed, it would explain why the captain attemped to get into the cabin for a mask, and why the FO despite wearing a mask was slumped over the controls. If the pax O2 worked, then it would also explain why they had time to send text messages while they all slowly froze to death.
What isn't clear is whether the aircraft initiated a descent, and how the passengers managed to use their phones.
Of course, the usual disclaimer about these being ideas only, and we wait for the final report blah blah blah...
I'm assuming that the crew donned their mask... realised the O2 is not flowing for them (separate O2 supply from pax). They decided one would commence descent and the other would go to the cabin to get portable Oxy Bottles or to the pax seat to go back to cockpit and take over from his would by then be unconscious colleague... The problem is, he didn't make it.
Plus, either the remaining pilot failed to put the aircraft into the rapid descent because they lost TUC in the realisation that the Crew O2 was inop, or, he decided to initiate with a shallow dive to give time for his crew mate to get Oxygen/POB before the rapid descent. "Descent at the maximum safe rate of descent and speed" (from the "Decompression - structural integrity doubted")... Well, he probably did not want to fling his crew mate in the air either.
So far CXflyboy's question has no answer... but I'm sure this will be known and we can rule out more items out of our "speculation game"...
Tragedy
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
T prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 960 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7387 times:
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 13): IF the crew O2 failed, it would explain why the captain attemped to get into the cabin for a mask, and why the FO despite wearing a mask was slumped over the controls. If the pax O2 worked, then it would also explain why they had time to send text messages while they all slowly froze to death.
Is there no crew portable O2 bottle in the cockpit? If the main O2 system malfunctioned or a crew member needed to get out of their seat for whatever reason, it would be a handy thing to have. I know some aircraft do have them. IMO, having to get out of your seat and go into the cabin looking for O2 would be a difficult thing to do when depressurised at 35,000 feet.
CX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6129 posts, RR: 57 Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7355 times:
Quoting T prop (Reply 16): Is there no crew portable O2 bottle in the cockpit? If the main O2 system malfunctioned or a crew member needed to get out of their seat for whatever reason, it would be a handy thing to have. I know some aircraft do have them. IMO, having to get out of your seat and go into the cabin looking for O2 would be a difficult thing to do when depressurised at 35,000 feet.
T prop.
We do not have portable bottles in the cockpit, but maybe other airlines do. I am not sure. It is not expected that the crew O2 system will fail...but even so, at cruise altitude, you would probably not have enough time to get out of your seat, unlatch the bottle, untangle the mask, put it on and twist the handle to commence O2 flow.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 30162 posts, RR: 61 Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7354 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8): Anybody know the ground elevation at the point of impact
Seeing the condition of the Empennage.less damage comparatively.
Quoting Dehowie (Reply 12): Does the 733 have an audible warning for cabin altitude excursion
Yes.
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 13): This is possible, but perhaps the most simple reason is that the crew O2 didn't work
Quoting T prop (Reply 16): Is there no crew portable O2 bottle in the cockpit
Why was the portable O2 bottles not used.Both Cockpit & Portable O2 sources are checked prior to Departure.
Although Terrorism is ruled out,but what about a gas released in flt.Or Crew O2 INOP & the Pax o2 ran out with time.
When will the report be released .... Three months.
regds
MEL
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12959 posts, RR: 55 Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7329 times:
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 13): IF the crew O2 failed, it would explain why the captain attemped to get into the cabin for a mask, and why the FO despite wearing a mask was slumped over the controls. If the pax O2 worked, then it would also explain why they had time to send text messages while they all slowly froze to death.
But it's still bizarre. The passengers mentioned seeing the commander, who was 'blue'. I wonder if no attempt was made by the concious, mask-wearing passengers or F/As to revive him? I wouldn't think it would take that much oxygen to at least get him to regain some level of conciousness again.
Schooner From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7321 times:
Talking about this at work yesterday did get us wondering, in the 757 at least some of the flightdeck O2 bottles on our fleet actually have an on/off tap located near the FOs right knee. Not very safe in our opinion. Perhaps if the 737 has similar this was off & the crew neglected to check their O2 or only checked quantity & not availability. Needless to say we were very particular checking ours before the flight!
ChiefT From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 193 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7220 times:
Just came in from FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL:
Sequence of events behind Helios 737 crash remains a puzzle
Flight International online news 09:00 GMT: Problems with the pressurisation system appear almost certainly to be behind the fatal loss yesterday of a Helios Airways Boeing 737-300 in Greece, but the possible sequence of events remains a puzzle.
Two Greek air force F-16s inspected the aircraft from the air after air traffic control lost communication with it while it was en route from Larnaca, Cyprus to Athens.
A Greek Government spokesman says the fighter pilots, intercepting at 34,000ft, saw only the first officer in the cockpit and he was apparently unconscious.
A passenger on the aircraft, identified as Nikos Petridis, is widely reported to have sent one or two text messages from his mobile phone to his cousin, containing the words: “The pilot has turned blue. Cousin farewell. We’re freezing.”
Greek rescue services say that passengers’ bodies recovered from the wreckage, in hills some 20nm north of Athens, were wearing oxygen masks.
There are unconfirmed reports that the crew reported a problem with the on-board air circulation systems at an earlier stage in the flight.
And Flight International’s sister publication Air Transport Intelligence reports that Turkish air traffic controllers observed the aircraft transmitting the 7700 international emergency code from its transponder.
A Greek government official is this morning reported as telling CNN that the fighter pilots later observed people in the cockpit before the aircraft crashed.
The circumstances of the final crash into the ground, at 12:20, are not known.
Numerous pilots who have commented on the accident confess to being perplexed over the possible on-board sequence.
The fact that the passengers’ oxygen masks deployed – an automatic process – appears to imply that the pilots should have received aural and visual warnings that there was a problem with the cabin altitude.
The pilots’ drill would call for them to don immediately their own oxygen equipment – which is entirely separate from the cabin system – before attempting to diagnose the problem and descending to around 10,000ft where the air would be breathable again.
The absence of the captain from the cockpit, allied to the content of the passenger’s text message, has led to speculation that the captain entered the cabin to investigate what was happening and then lost consciousness. If the first officer had not put on his own mask then he too would have fallen unconscious.
But it remains unclear what fault or faults would have caused the lack of pressurisation in the first place. The fighter pilots are not reported to have mentioned any physical damage to the aircraft that would cause a loss of cabin air.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10039 posts, RR: 75 Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7207 times:
Quoting Iakobos (Reply 21): I do not know the precise point of impact, but it is lower than the top of the hills around it, which means around 1,000-1,500ft.
Thanks Iakobos. Well, that sure does nothing to clear up the mysteries. If the plane was at a low enough altitude to hit these hills there was certainly enough oxygen just in the cabin air.
One speculation: Maybe they had spent a long time at higher altitudes without oxygen. Some, maybe both pilots, died and no one else could get into the cockpit. Then on descending to lower altitudes, (for reasons unknown) some people regained consciousness. If you have not experienced the altitude chamber it could be very confusing to you, and you might not even know you had been unconscious. Again, just speculation there.
What a sad story.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Iakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3267 posts, RR: 44 Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7193 times:
Couple of things...
Firefighting helicopters and engines are still at work today.
I do not imply that there was still fuel in the plane, the parts are obviously scattered over a large area and in August in Greece it is easy to start a fire.
Still...
SlamClick: what would a plane do after the last entered WP was reached ? (possibly KEA VOR, which is on the route for an approach to ATH from the South -prevailing in summer)
25 SlamClick: Not for sure here. I think it would fly all of the lateral track it had in the FMC, but would not descend. That might mean that it might possibly eve
26 DH106: Again speculation, but perhaps the pilots lost consciousness - for reasons unknown the appropriate & prompt depressurisation drills weren't performed.
27 CX flyboy: It crashed a little over an hour after ETA at ATH....this sounds very feasible for the running out of fuel theory. In the Boeing aircraft I have flown
28 Iakobos: Seems logic to me, in which case the a/c should have flown WNW/NW and keep FL340 until out of fuel....unless some "command", external or internal to
29 DH106: How wide an area are we talking ? You mean here that the impact probalby wasn't essentially vertical - more a glancing blow with a longish debris tra
30 747Specialist: The STAR on the HCY522 flight plan was VARIX1A. VARIX to KRO, and in case of missed approach, climb to 5000' and hold at KEA VOR. (LGAV/ATH chart 21-
31 777236ER: If he was completely slumped over the column, is it possible the autopilot tried to compensate but simply ran out of trim, hence the shallow descent?
32 Okie: Does anyone know if the aircraft in question had a 30 minute or the newer 24 hour CVR? The Payne Stewart accident only had a 30 minute CVR and was of
33 Pihero: I am completely baffled. As the intercepting fighters have not reported any structural damage, we could assume that the only reasonable theory is a pr
34 Derik737: 1. The cabin pressure controller should have immediately closed the outflow valve if a loss of cabin pressure was detected. 2. If for some reason, the
35 VC-10: Why didn't the pilot select 'Manual' on the outflow valve control? That would have stopped it dead on its tracks. I don't know the 73' but I expect t
36 SlamClick: CNN reporting now that bodies were "frozen solid" which sounds like a long time at high altitude with no pack output. Bleed air coming off the engines
37 B744F: Why did they not descend immediately after reporting AC issues??
38 VC-10: Wouldn't your ears tell you there was a problem unless your climb was very slow?
39 Pihero: and Derik737,reply=37: 1. The cabin pressure controller should have immediately closed the outflow valve if a loss of cabin pressure was detected. 2.
40 Derik737: What's intriguing is that the 737 Altitude Warning Horn turns on at 10,000 ft cabin altitude. The passenger oxygen masks deploy at 14,000 ft cabin al
41 VC-10: I also agree. I'm just offering what knowledge I have of a/c systems. The closed hole at the front (or where ever) would compensate to some degree, c
42 Pihero: And that is why I respect you and most of the posters on this forum. Best regards
43 SlamClick: Yes, especially if you are still conscious. Here's the thing though. Let us try two assumptions: 1. The packs are still pumping some kind of bleed ai
44 VC-10: Thank you. Looking at my 737-200 notes I read that the Fwd Outflow Vlv is a slave of the Aft. The Aft Vlv must reach full travel before the fwd one wi
45 VC-10: In both senario's wouldn't the Cabin Alt warning @ 10,000Ft give the crew time to react before it was too late? Unless we are looking at multiple fail
46 Bobster2: Having "ample warning" does not guarantee a happy outcome. Consider the case of the 737 captain who knocked his eye glasses to the floor while trying
47 MD11Engineer: There are oxygen masks in the ceiling over the F/A jump seats. Plus, there are portable O2 bottles within reach of the F/A positions. Jan
48 Tod: Not a requirement, but some operators have them, but as MD11Engineer stated, the F/A seat has one and on a 737 it can't be far from the galley.
49 Iakobos: Not really Tech/Ops but since it is directly related... The SMS story was a bogus. A smartass from Thessaloniki (ie. a neighbour) did make a phone cal
50 FDXMECH: I've been wracking my brain over this event as well. I seem to remember an event where a 737 flew with the bleeds off. This might account for both pac
52 Derik737: It depends on if the "case" is the outside shell (painted orange) or the actual recording containment case (silver unit housed inside the recorder).
53 CX flyboy: Thanks, this indeed does clear something about about the aircraft tracking.
54 VC-10: Bobster2 the cases you cite sound like they were already at altitude, not climbing through 10,000 Ft
55 HAWK21M: Depends on the pressure load aplied to the Force TxDcr to disconnect A/P. Preflight checks on Qty gauge & O2 Bottles mandatory.Difficult to believe a
56 Mrocktor: Much more than that is bearable, but the usual figure for the boundary of what we may call the "comfort range" is 300-400fpm. More than that would be
57 Pihero: Thanks MD11Engineer, Tod, FDXMECH for your input. It looks like, as SamClick theorizes, a likely cause could be an insidious hypoxia due to some air c
58 Iakobos: 5 hectares (50,000 sqm) The tail is on a flat part, other pieces are much further in a sort of basin some 20-30ft lower The 25 bodies autopsied so fa
59 Bobster2: Here's an interesting bit of new information from the NY Times. "On Monday, a senior Greek Air Force official, who spoke only on the condition of anon
60 Bobster2: In the first incident they were flying at FL350 and experienced explosive decompression. But the cabin pressure was only at 20,000 feet when the capt
61 ScarletHarlot: What do you guys think of the latest information (unconfirmed) that a F/A with pilot training was in control of the plane when it crashed, which was d
62 Iakobos: A little bit long to translate all of it, but here are the essentials Were f/a Andreas and his f/a gf Haris the two persons seen in the cockpit tryin
63 Bobster2: One news report today said that the crash site was not secured and somebody was tampering with switches in the cockpit. That's just swell. At this poi
64 Iakobos: We have a saying: only nuns are paid to believe For your information, today, for the first time, could the media show (and consequently approach) the
65 No1racer: Hey all, I do find it quite odd that the Flight Attendant was seen in the cockpit after an hour. Even if he had been oblivious to the situation in the
66 AvionicMech: I think what could of happened is that the aircraft had the pressurisation problem that we know about but then thought they had fixed it so climbed to
67 ScarletHarlot: I wonder if the pilot-in-passenger-cabin scenario is even a consideration any more. If the text message was faked, which seemed to be what indicated t
68 Iakobos: A 737 cockpit is no living room, even by Japanese standards. The only space where a body could be "on the floor" and he would not even fit entirely in
69 BackSeater: Clearly, the space for speculation should quickly shrink provided the French authorities decide to share some of the results of the FDR soon. In the m
70 Iakobos: Backseater, it seems a very plausible frame. The pilots were warned of a problem, assessed the situation, then choose (well at least the Captain) to r
71 Corsair2: This is a very bizarre situation since the aircraft industry designs to the very important FAR 25.1309. This FAR standard basically says that single p
72 Bobster2: A report from Reuters said the voice recorder was found.
73 BackSeater: The French newspaper “Le Monde” published an article on Friday, August 19th, based upon AFP reports on remarks made by the president of the Board
75 Iakobos: It is not only fair, it is excellent. MEL, Seeing the way the authorities have released bits of info as soon as they were available, it is probable t
77 Klaus: 1e-9 is a shortened form of a floating-point value in exponential notation that´s normally used by computer software. In long form it means 1 * 10^(
78 BackSeater: Some new tidbits of information, in raw form, including some from BEA in France. Following are excerpts from the "News in English" of Hellenic radio a
79 ArmitageShanks: If anyone is interested, there are pictures of the crash on ogrish.com. They are pretty gross.
80 HAWK21M: Thanks. How would it be pronounced/read 1 *10^(-9). Are the talking of the MOV. Then why did it not return back. How did this contribute. regds MEL
81 ScarletHarlot: MEL, it would be pronounced "1 times 10 to the power of negative 9".
83 Comorin: Alternatively read as "Ten raised to the power of minus nine." or "Ten to the power of minus nine". Conversationally you can abbreviate to "Ten to th
84 HAWK21M: Is the ^ symbol used as the root number cannot be typed smaller on a Keyboard. regds MEL
85 FredT: In non-ASCII mathematical writing, 10^-9 would be 10 directly followed by "-9" in superscript. No root symbols. Also, it is not "a probability of fai
87 Corsair2: People in the industry call these the "ten to the minus nine" failure types. After having looked at this pressurization system more, I realize that th
88 BackSeater: The chatter around Greece seems to focus on an anomaly in the pressurization system (that may be have been reported a week before the crash) and a pos
89 Mandala499: What's intriguing is that the 737 Altitude Warning Horn turns on at 10,000 ft cabin altitude. U'd hear a take off config warning... which the initial
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