Sabenaboy From Belgium, joined Feb 2001, 187 posts, RR: 1 Posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4022 times:
I think that most airline pilots can tell about a few things that regularly bother or upset them a little bit. I sure can! (not that it influences my good mood, nor will I let it show)
I would like to tell you about one:
I now fly for a European charter company. We fly A320’s to the holiday destinations.
When we arrive at our destination, a representative of the local handling agent will (should) come to the aircraft and give us the necessary information. What bothers me is that 8 times out of 10, these reps come into the cockpit and request the necessary (fuel)figures and aircraft weights that they need for the loadsheet, without having the latest weather information from our home base and alternates available to us. A typical conversation goes like this:
Rep (entering flightdeck): "“Hello sir, can I have the fuelfigures from you, please?"”
Me: “"Hello, can I see the last weather update please?”"
Rep: “ "I'’ll bring it to you in 5 minutes, sir”"
Me: "We need the weather info to decide if and how much extra fuel might be needed. I can’t give you the figure without the weather data”."
Rep: "“Ok, I’'ll be right back”"
So then we start with putting the minimum required fuel in the tanks and have the fuelling truck standby at the A/C until the rep returns with the metars and Taf’s and we can decide if we want extra fuel or not.
The problem is that this way valuable time is lost and the turnaround will sometimes take longer then it would have if the weather would have been available immediately. Also the fuelling truck looses valuable time waiting at the A/C, while other A/C are waiting to get refuelled.
All my colleagues and myself + our company itself instruct these handling agents to have weather update available when meeting us at the A/C, but still most of them don’t.
I can’t imagine that we are the only company that checks the weather before returning home (to Belgium, where the weather often changes quickly and unexpectedly )
Does this sound like a familiar story to you, guys?
Can you tell about some other things that annoy you (a little bit)?
727EMflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3888 times:
Sabenaboy, just curious here, why are you depending on a ground handler for your weather reports? I'm just a private pilot with all my time in a C172, but I was under the impression that a modern airliner would have equipment like ACARS that could get you the latest data from your dispatchers... or wouldn't you as a pilot have access to a DUAT computer to look at the data yourself before boarding the aircraft?
Sabenaboy From Belgium, joined Feb 2001, 187 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3874 times:
727EMflyer,
We're just a small chartercompany using 5 A320's. We don't have ACARS installed...for financial reasons. (cost saving)
DUAT is an American system, not available over here in Europe.
Anyway, I'm talking about a landing in one of our destinations. When we get somewhere, we don't leave the aircraft. We just disembark our passengers, refuel, clean the interior, embark the homewardbound vacationers and takeoff again. There's simply no time to go to some office and check the weather ourselves.
Our handling agents are instructed that they should bring the weather info to us asap. It simply annoys me that they can still stare at you in disbelief, when you let them know that we actually need weather info before we can tell him how much fuel we're going to take. I'm sure that they have been instructed to do so, by myself, by all my colleagues and by other airline companies at least a few hundred times before.
I'm afraid to say so, but would it have to do with the fact that most of our destinations are located in southern Europe and northern Africa???
FinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
The unprofessional radio phraseology is one thing which annoys me a lot. There has been a plenty of accidents in the past due the poor phraseology and therefore ICAO has published standard phrases which you should also use! Especially I would expect high standards from professional pilots...
I'm a Finnish pilot who use always English no matter am I flying abroad or here in Finland. Now, I don't understand either why can't French pilots stick with English over France, for example, to improve the situational awareness of all pilots there! Forget the national pride and speak a language which everyone can understand. Small local airports are an another story, if there isn't international traffic...
727EMflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3842 times:
That makes sense, Sabenaboy, and yes it would be very annoying since it sounds like your company flies regularly to these destinations! BTW I just assumed there was a european equivalent to DUAT.
777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 874 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3747 times:
Check out the system Jetblue uses in their A320's.
It's an 'paperless' cockpit, the onboard computer figures everything out and even updated to the min. I read a book "Flying high" by David Needleman it said the data gets transfered wireless and this reduces delays and downtime while waiting for info and less cluttered paperwork. Includes weather data too.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3653 times:
Quoting Midnights (Reply 9): It only takes 6 words from me to annoy any captain here at DFW, especially during the summer months....."Captain, you just lost your APU!"
"You need to call crew scheduling" seems to work pretty well too...
Sanjet From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 180 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3645 times:
Totally agree that you need a dispatcher for your company. They simply fax the papers to the agents and give them to you. If they can operate 320`s, I`m sure you have dispatchers.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3635 times:
Quoting Sanjet (Reply 11): If they can operate 320`s, I`m sure you have dispatchers.
It has to be recognized here that the term/title "dispatcher" means different things in different places.
In the USA under Part 121 Domestic/Flag rules, the dispatcher does all of the pre-flight planning work, and is jointly responsible for "operational control" along with the captain.
In some other places in the world, a "dispatcher" is someone to parks the aircraft, runs the jetway/stairs to the aircraft, opens the door, and does other things involving the ground turnaround of the flight. (Here in the USA, we'd call that an operations agent, or station agent).
In some other places in the world, the person that produces the computer flight plan, files the ATC plan, and other planning functions is called a flight operations officer (FOO). His/her duties are more similar to those of a dispatcher in the USA, but most FOOs don't have the same joint responsibility with the captain. That last item can make a big difference in flight safety...
GQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 3571 times:
Quoting Sabenaboy (Thread starter): All my colleagues and myself + our company itself instruct these handling agents to have weather update available when meeting us at the A/C, but still most of them don’t.
I can’t imagine that we are the only company that checks the weather before returning home (to Belgium, where the weather often changes quickly and unexpectedly )
It's SOP at my airline to have current WX printed out for every flight...
We can be written up for not having it available.
Quoting FinnWings (Reply 4): Now, I don't understand either why can't French pilots stick with English over France, for example, to improve the situational awareness of all pilots there! Forget the national pride and speak a language which everyone can understand.
Rumor has it France was VERY upset when it was generally agreed upon that English would be the 'International Airline Speak' instead of French.
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 10): "You need to call crew scheduling"
Sabenaboy From Belgium, joined Feb 2001, 187 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 3554 times:
To HAWK21M, OPNLguy, sanjet,
Let me try to clarify something for you:
Of course we have flight dispatchers. They are in our home base in Belgium.
We always fly two or three legs per day, starting and returning to our home base. We leave our home base with all necessary paperwork (flight plans, notams, weather, pax info...)
A handling agent is a company in an away-from-base destination who takes care of pax + luggage checkin, fueling, A/C cleaning...and updated weather info.
All they have to do weatherwise is go their computer 15 mins before we land, type in a few ICAO airport codes, print out the latest metars and tafs for these airports and bring it out to us as soon as we arrive at the gate.
That way we can take a glimpse immediately at the weather and we can decide right away how much fuel we want to uplift.
Belgium, like Britain, is one of these countries where you can leave in the morning, the long TAF promising you CAVOK for the next 18 hours. However when you land at your destination 3 or 4 hours later (in Greece e.g.) and check the last updates for home base, there is thick fog or CB's.
Reps are very well aware that we need this weather data, but still very often they will ask us how much fuel we need without having the weather info available to us.
That's just stupid and a lousy job.
Quoting 777WT (Reply 8):
It's an 'paperless' cockpit, the onboard computer figures everything out and even updated to the min. I read a book "Flying high" by David Needleman it said the data gets transfered wireless and this reduces delays and downtime while waiting for info and less cluttered paperwork. Includes weather data too.
777WT, of course such a system exists: we don't use it: guess why after reading my quote below.
Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 3): We don't have operational ACARS...for financial reasons. (cost saving)
CX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6341 posts, RR: 56 Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 3538 times:
It is very annoying when ATC favours certain home airlines over the foreigners and delay us, give us the bad flight levels etc....then deny that they are doing it.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 16 hours ago) and read 3494 times:
Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 14): Reps are very well aware that we need this weather data, but still very often they will ask us how much fuel we need without having the weather info available to us.
Get a Despatcher to train them for a few days.It'll make a difference.
About the Annoying things:-
When your delay is 20 minutes say 20 minutes,rather than saying only "5 mins more" Four tmes.
regds
MEL
Sabenaboy From Belgium, joined Feb 2001, 187 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 3429 times:
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 16): It is very annoying when ATC favours certain home airlines over the foreigners and delay us, give us the bad flight levels etc....then deny that they are doing it.
Yep, that is very annoying. Happens all the time in Spain.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13336 posts, RR: 64 Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 3364 times:
Taking over a plane and finding the cockpit full of rubbish.
We are there to fix the plane, not to clean up after the pilots. Dump your empty coffee cups in the rubbish bag.
Pet peeve:
Drinks placed on the center pedestal
Another thing:
If you are waiting for your push back / engine start clearance and there is a delay from ATC, tell it to the bloke on the headset. It is no fun to stand for an hour outside in freezing rain, while the pilots are cozy upstairs in their warm cockpit.
Tell the guy that there will be a delay, so that he can sit in his truck. When the clearance comes, switch on your beacon and he will be online within a few seconds.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6180 posts, RR: 74 Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 3348 times:
What's annoying is giving you taxi instructions as "proceed to gate via landing route alpha 27"... which is specific to 3 gates in an airport that's easily laid out... Funny to see an airplane just reply "just give me the taxiway names and I won't get lost like the last time you gave me the wrong route".
Local annoying ATC habits:
"XX###, high speed below 10..." and about 2 minutes later... "XX### slow down to 200 knots... caution traffic ahead 5 miles 220 knots and incoming behind you at 15 miles at 300 knots"
---
"Approach, XX### request 07L instead."
"XX###, 07L is approved, fly heading 100 intercept ILS call established"
"XX### established 07L"
"XX###, call tower 118.2 caution many kites on 07L centerline"
"Err, thanks, one got into the engine and one just hit our windscreen."
---
"GIA111, after airborne maintain runway heading climb 5000, 07L cleared for take off"... then... "GIA222 line up and wait 07L"
"GIA222, after airborne maintain runway heading climb 4000, 07L cleared for take off"... then... "GIA333 line up and wait 07L"
"GIA333, after airborne maintain runway heading climb 3000, 07L cleared for take off"... then... "GIA444 line up and wait 07L"
"GIA444, after airborne maintain runway heading climb 2000, 07L cleared for take off"... then... "GIA555 line up and wait 07L"
"GIA555, after airborne maintain runway heading climb 1000, 07L cleared for take off"... then... "GIA666 line up and wait 07L"
"GIA666, after airborne maintain runway heading climb.... errr... disregard, GIA777 traffic on runway go around fly heading 350 maintain 1000"
*the ATCO got a holiday after this... and always gets the rush hour shifts on CGK Tower...
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Yeah thats a real concern & Annoying.Even placing plastic cups full of Coffee on the Dashboard.Need to tell them what happens when spills occur & why cup holders are provided.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21): If you are waiting for your push back / engine start clearance and there is a delay from ATC, tell it to the bloke on the headset. It is no fun to stand for an hour outside in freezing rain, while the pilots are cozy upstairs in their warm cockpit
If theres no communication.The MX guy just asks them why.
regds
MEL
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13336 posts, RR: 64 Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3187 times:
I have had enough crews, who turned off the flight intercom, because they didn't want to be disturbed, and ignored the cockpit call chime (which on some aircraft has to be reset after it rings once). You are standing there like a fool waiting until they finally please to call you. And after the stairs are pulled and the door closed, you can not go up to them.
Jan
25 Goldenshield: This is the good thing about dispatchers, is that they (we) know to expect these kinds of things from experience. ORD, DEN, and SFO are prime example
26 HAWK21M: Ever tried Flashing the Flashlight at the Windows It works out here. regds MEL
27 MD11Engineer: Doesn't work if you are pushing a widebody. You stand UNDER the plane, not beside it, the headset wire (about 5 meters long) is not long enough to let
28 HAWK21M: Thats True. So has Mx found a solution then BTW How effective are the Wireless headsets. regds MEL
29 2H4: Although I understand the need for an airport to cater to corporate visitors, as a student, it's really annoying to have to hold short for extended p
30 Sabenaboy: Here's another thing that annoys me a little bit. Very often when you check in with a French ATC-facility the conversation goes like this: Plane: "Mar
31 DeltaGuy767: Well I'm not a airline pilot, but I fly C172's and I flew into the Montreal area once and when I first called Montreal Approach Control this was what
32 HAWK21M: Either English Mandatory for International Ops OR The Backup should come on line faster than 20 secs. regds MEL
33 Amtrosie: 2H4, When you buy what they buy (1000+gal.) of fuel at a time, or pay several hundred dollars (or more) worth of services, you go to the front. Also w
34 ReidYYZ: Not so much an annoyance, more of a seriously disturbing environment. Many years ago, I was sitting jump seat. Climbing out over the states (departing
35 Beechcraft: Hi all, Boy, do i hate that... I had some spanish controllers who turned us left 90 degress for "initial vectors", which meant we gave way for up to t
36 CX flyboy: haha....yes we also get this in CX. It is not so much annoying as just making me think "yeah yeah, don't rush us".
37 FlyMIA: Yea I have heard this in Cuba and Columbia and Mexico also. Once while listening to Bogota TWR I hear the tower talk Spanish the whole time to all tr
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