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What Happens If You Land W/brakes On?  
User currently offlineTimePilot From Switzerland, joined Sep 2005, 296 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8567 times:

First of all I'm assuming that aircraft have wheel brakes. What would happen if you landed with them on? Would the tires blow? Would the plane flip all over the place or would it just smell funny from the over heated rubber?

Can you even land with the brakes on? Do you have to be pushing a pedal or something?  blush  (sorry, no idea how it works ...)  blush 

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaboclo From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Aircraft wheel brakes are operated by pushing on the top of the rudder pedals. It is possible to land with the brakes on; if you do, you blow a whole lot of tires. Before landing, the pilot must be sure to slide his feet back till only his toes are on the bottom of the rudder pedals.


Freight dogs have more fun
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8580 times:

Most modern airplanes do have wheel brakes on the maingear only. Mostly they are operated by pressing the top of each rudder pedal. This gives differential braking for each side, so they can be used for steering.

Airliners and most civil jets have anti-skid systems and most anti-skid systems have "locked wheel" protection which would allow the wheel to turn if you landed with your size-twelves planted on the brake pedals.

Older systems would not protect you in this case and blown tires and even wheel fires were a common enough result.

The older Beech Barons I flew had a parking brake knob on the bottom of the instrument panel. For parking brake you would apply regular wheel brakes, then pull the knob, trapping that brake pressure. (a system commonly in use) Well, it was known to have happened that someone would inadvertently pull that knob. Then every movement of the rudder pedals, if your feet were positioned high on the pedal would trap brake fluid under pressure. Landing with locked mains was the usual result.

I had an uncommanded locked wheel landing once in a Cessna 404 twin. It was on runway 24Right at LAX and the wheel never rotated at all. It skidded down the runway and I was lucky to be able to slide clear of the runways onto a taxiway. The plane had Cessna Citation jet maintires on it, and this sawed the bottom off the tire and ground almost half the wheel rim away. I was lucky not to have had a brake fire.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8575 times:

Modern anti-skid systems incorporate a feature called "touchdown protection". This should prevent landing with brakes applied.

Here is a quote from the B737NG AMM describing the system:

Touchdown Protection:
The touchdown protection releases brake pressure from
wheels 2 and 4 while the airplane is in the air and remains
active until 0.7 seconds after the corresponding wheel spins up
to 70 knots, or when the ground mode has been sensed
continuously for three (3) seconds. The PSEU supplies the air or
ground signals to the AACU, (system 1 for wheel 2 and system 2
for wheel 4).

Touchdown/Hydroplane Protection:
The touchdown/hydroplane protection compares wheel speed
data to ADIRU ground speed data. When the wheel speed
decreases to 50 knots less than ground speed, the touchdown/
hydroplane protection releases pressure to the brake. The
hydroplane function supplies protection to wheels 1 and 3 only.


If an aircraft lands with brakes applied, all wheels will be damaged and the pilot will have a cup of tea with his chief pilot. Big grin
In my air force days I have worked on C-160 and one day a crew landed on aircraft with the parking brake applied (no anti skid protection) and all eight main wheels and brakes were scrapped! Big smoke on the runway...



This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
User currently offlineElectech6299 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 616 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8549 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
I had an uncommanded locked wheel landing once in a Cessna 404 twin.

Whoa! Cool story- now that we know the ending and can look back. I can only imagine the smell! (and I really don't want to!) I would probably wet my pants watching it on film....

What was the cause? A hydraulic issue like the Barons? Or a seized/frozen brake?

BTW, my answer to the post title (from a passenger's perspective, but perhap's a pilot's as well?): plug your nose and pray.....

-Electech



Send not to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8546 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Airliners and most civil jets have anti-skid systems and most anti-skid systems have "locked wheel" protection which would allow the wheel to turn if you landed with your size-twelves planted on the brake pedals.

Locked wheel protection is a slightly different story. It compares the speeds of wheel pairs. If the anti skid system senses a certain difference between the wheels it releases brake pressure from the slower wheel.

Here again a quote from the B737NG AMM:
Locked Wheel Protection:
Locked wheel protection compares the wheel speeds of the two
outboard or the two inboard pair of wheels.
If the slower wheel speed decreases to less than 30 percent of
the faster wheel speed, the locked wheel protection releases
brake pressure from the slower wheel. Locked wheel protection
does not operate at a speed less than 25 knots.



This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8480 times:

In a Beech Sundowner I can tell you it results in a burst tire and an uncommanded (well..) departure of the runway, and if there are any aircraft parked alongside that runway you just departed...well....need I say anymore  Wink


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8459 times:

Taildragger, you are going to end up on your back.

And I have seen the results of a lear landing with locked brakes due slush on the departure runway.

Yup, mechanics scrambling to find 4 mounted lear tires at 2 in the morning. Which if you only have one aircraft isn't a number you normally stock at once.

The mainwheels where ground down to about an inch of the rim.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8323 times:

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 5):
Locked wheel protection is a slightly different story. It compares the speeds of wheel pairs. If the anti skid system senses a certain difference between the wheels it releases brake pressure from the slower wheel.

You are right - I said the wrong one.

Never did find out what caused the problem with the C-404 but a couple of us had it happen.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineStall From Switzerland, joined Apr 2004, 257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8295 times:

Few years ago a saw a Swiss F5 Tiger landing with the brakes on (anti-skid was disconected mistakenly by the pilot) ... well a lot smoke, a big noise and lot of sparks.

The mech team had a long night to fix the plane  Smile



Flying is fun
User currently offlineMidnights From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8241 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 2):
Most modern airplanes do have wheel brakes on the maingear only. Mostly they are operated by pressing the top of each rudder pedal. This gives differential braking for each side, so they can be used for steering

This is why I have so many tires to change....Using brakes to steer the A/C at taxi speeds will greatly shorten the life of the tires, especialy the nose tires as it pulls the nose around. Job security I guess.....


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

Quoting Midnights (Reply 10):
This is why I have so many tires to change....Using brakes to steer the A/C at taxi speeds will greatly shorten the life of the tires, especialy the nose tires as it pulls the nose around. Job security I guess.....

Sorry partner. I wasn't just out there drumming up work for you. I was addressing a guy who claimed to know nothing about airplanes. You pilots out there - what Midnights said: Differential braking is for when you've run out of everything else.

I've always thought that was not the best idea ever - the Grumman-American Yankee with no nosewheel steering, just castering. Even without a flat tire it didn't look all that great.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8133 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
I've always thought that was not the best idea ever - the Grumman-American Yankee with no nosewheel steering, just castering.



I agree....I flew a Cirrus, which also has a free castoring nosewheel, and I felt as if I was doing something wrong the whole time I taxied.




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineCaboclo From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8112 times:

One cause of locked brakes on small aircraft is moisture frozen on them. At my first freight job, I was taught to hid the brakes HARD after extending the gear for landing, to move the pistons and break the ice.

Re differential braking, on the Metroliner, the nosewheel steering is MEL-able!! Landing with no steering has to be all kinds of fun.  scared 



Freight dogs have more fun
User currently offlineACYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 16 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

Quoting Caboclo (Reply 13):
One cause of locked brakes on small aircraft is moisture frozen on them. At my first freight job, I was taught to hid the brakes HARD after extending the gear for landing, to move the pistons and break the ice.

When I was working at Kenn Borek Air, their answer to the ice frozen brake situation on their King Airs was to give it a REALLY hard landing. Theory being, if you hit it hard enough it'll crack the ice and break it off. They had a number of interesting work arounds on their planes, since many of the planes were operating in environments they were never designed for.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6921 times:

With most modern Commercial Airliners having In built Touchdown protection & Locked wheel protection.This is eliminated.If there was to be a malfunction one would get Decapped tires or badly skid marks on them.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6901 times:

It has happened at my university once before...a few blown tires and lots of black smoke.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
I've always thought that was not the best idea ever - the Grumman-American Yankee with no nosewheel steering, just castering. Even without a flat tire it didn't look all that great.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12):
I agree....I flew a Cirrus, which also has a free castoring nosewheel, and I felt as if I was doing something wrong the whole time I taxied.

How is that similar to a Cessna's steering, which I absolutely hate?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6896 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 16):

Ever Observed a B737 Landing with a Broken torsion link on the NLG & watch as the Speed reduces.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6889 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Ever Observed a B737 Landing with a Broken torsion link on the NLG & watch as the Speed reduces.

I have not, but it sounds interesting (but from the safety point of view-scary).


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6874 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 18):
I have not, but it sounds interesting (but from the safety point of view-scary).

As the Aircraft looses momentum,the Nose wheel starts Snaking with a wider area as Steering control thru the Tiller & Rudder pedals is lost.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6862 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting N231YE (Reply 16):
How is that similar to a Cessna's steering, which I absolutely hate?

Cessnas...at least the 150/152/172/182/210...don't have free castoring nosewheels. They have bungees that link the pedals to the nose gear. When the rudder pedal (not brake) is moved, the nosewheel pivots accordingly.

On the Cirrus, and other aircraft with castoring nosewheels, the nosewheel doesn't care what rudder inputs are being made....it simply acts like the front wheel of a wheelchair or shopping cart. Application of one of the brakes is required to change direction.

I really can't stand castoring nosewheels. Although some of them allow for smaller-radius turns, using the brakes to turn feels very sloppy to me.


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineSulman From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2037 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

I found the C150 very difficult to steer when I first started - the nose wobbled all over the place. The main problem for me was that you had to steer with long, exaggurated movements - exactly the opposite of learning to control the aircraft in flight.


It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6796 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Sulman (Reply 21):
The main problem for me was that you had to steer with long, exaggurated movements

It's also important to anticipate and lead the steering inputs, as the bungees do not have an instant effect.


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineMxsup From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

Heard stories of an ExpressJet 145 landing in EWR with the parking brake applied. Did a couple 360's and scared the crap out of the crew. Dont know if its true or not.

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6756 times:

Quoting TimePilot (Thread starter):
What would happen if you landed with them on?

Can anyone load up the pictures of the MidAtlantic E170 that landed in Houston with the brakes on..?? It blew out all 4 main tires and broke one of the drag braces.......and left a long skid mark.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 N231YE : As you have stated, it seems that a Cessna's steering is much better than that of the Cirrus. Although I never have flown a Cirrus, I guess I would p
26 Post contains images KELPkid : Crosswind takeoffs can be real interesting in these types...the rudder doesn't have instant control authority Differential braking is sometimes requi
27 Post contains images PurdueAv2003 : Not to mention damage to the flaps, wings, and MLG doors from the tire debris and the wheels were ground down darn near to the axle on one side. Unfo
28 EMBQA : I still have them on my lap top.....
29 HAWK21M : Yup had viewed those pics.The Damage was massive.It had the Brakes scraped through too. regds MEL
30 Post contains images NicolasRubio : This: Note the braking distance!
31 Lowrider : You should try a castoring only tailwheel. Taxi is similar to herding cats. And that was just the pilots' shorts. You should have seen the runway.
32 Starlionblue : Nice shots NicolasRubio! Especially in those taildraggers that have no forward visibility while taxiing. Always looks like a drunk drivers weaving bac
33 Post contains images NicolasRubio : Thanks, but not mine (I forgot to say that! ) Cheers, Nicolas Rubio
34 HAWK21M : Those were the pics. BTW why did the Wheels lock in this case. regds MEL
35 Ex52tech : My guess would be anti-skid control failure.....unless the pilot set the parking brake in the air, which I'm not sure you can even do in the air. He
36 Curmudgeon : 1. I think the salient feature of anti-skid locked wheel protection is that the wheel speed is compared from one pair to another. If they are all lock
37 Ex52tech : So how did the wheels get locked in the first place? The LH MLG wheels were definately locked. Anti-skid systems don't usually work below 10kts, I th
38 Curmudgeon : It looks like they were all locked, but maybe the right ones burned through faster. The right side skid marks end much sooner than the left, but they
39 Lowrider : There is an NTSB report on this from 2005. If the site wasn't down right now I would post a link. Maybe tomorrow.
40 HAWK21M : Something Def went wrong.Anyone work on the type. regds MEL
41 VC-10 : Nice pictures. I like the way the downlock pin has been fitted to a fractured downlock!
42 Ex52tech : I saw that too. Either it was out of habbit on the part of the towing crew, or they thought it would trick the gear into not folding up while they we
43 Mrocktor : Parking brake set in flight.
44 Vikkyvik : Could you clarify what you mean? I don't get the analogy. Thanks! ~Vik
45 Ex52tech : Ok...for whatever reason the pilot decided to turn off the flight control computers while in flight. The assumption was that he was bored and thought
46 HAWK21M : How can you do that.Is there no Air-Grd lock. regds MEL
47 Curmudgeon : I don't think I aimed that explanation at you personally, 52Tech. I mentioned it in case some readers were not familiar, and to illustrate that parki
48 Ex52tech : Well think what you want.......but it happened. This situation was discussed in A320 training also, so it wasn't a secret.
49 Litz : I was on a DL MD88 a couple years back that almost tested this theory - we started our takeoff roll (after standing for a couple of minutes at the en
50 TWAL1011727 : Delta landed a DC9-32 at MLB back in 1988, the torsion link on the rt main gear seperated and the tire assembly spun 90 degrees. Interesting to watch
51 HAWK21M : Amazing.Any link/pics to that Incident. regds MEL
52 RIHNOSAUR : I remember that there was this impressive video floating around, where they did a rejected take off test using a camera mounted on the bely of an A340
53 Post contains links RIHNOSAUR : actually sorry .. I found it on another thread here is the you tube link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhMEN959voE but here it is it is not landing w
54 Post contains images BAe146QT : He should have been made to parade along the runway with his trousers down and a jelly doughnut in his mouth, (because of course I never make mistake
55 Post contains links Brenintw : I believe it's an Embraer E-170, registration is N804MD (looking at the pictures) which would make it this one: http://www.airliners.net/search/phot.
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