Zweed From Netherlands, joined Apr 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6101 times:
This friday i flew with KLM 1121 AMS - ARN
Just before we were about to taxi the captain started to talk. First that standardized welcome crap "thank you for flying with us..bla bla bla.
Then the big one came
"I would also like to point out that as of yesterday Boeing has an alert on these aircraft, 737-400. We cannot land with the flaps set at 30, we need to kep them at 15.
This means that we will land with a much higher speed. But you will hardly notice it.
Fair enough, nice of him to inform us about it and yes, I hardly paid any attention. I believe it took a bit longer to break on the runway, but that could just as well be an illusion.
So to the point, what kind of warning and ALERT was this?
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6001 times:
Quoting Zweed (Thread starter): Then the big one came
"I would also like to point out that as of yesterday Boeing has an alert on these aircraft, 737-400. We cannot land with the flaps set at 30, we need to kep them at 15.
This means that we will land with a much higher speed. But you will hardly notice it.
Fair enough, nice of him to inform us about it and yes, I hardly paid any attention. I believe it took a bit longer to break on the runway, but that could just as well be an illusion.
So to the point, what kind of warning and ALERT was this?
Equally to the point, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever.
It sounds like it's the result of a US FAA-initiated airworthiness directive (AD), which are usually followed by other civil aviation authorities in other countries. That said, I see -nothing- on the FAA's site, or even the site for the Netherlands' civil aviation authority, or Boeing's site.
Additionally, in many (but not all cases), something that affects the 737-400 also affects the other models in the 737 "Classic" family, i.e. the 737-300 and 737-500, and as my airline operates those two types, we haven't heard of any operational restrictions of landing at flaps-15 only.
On the 737, flaps-15 are the setting for landing with certain types of malfunctions (engine failures/shutdowns, etc.) but I can't imagine this being a factor as the crew is telling you all this -before- you're about to leave AMS.
I want congratulate you for asking a very perplexing question, and I'm very curious to know what the true answer ends up being...
Dogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5878 times:
Maybe it was an exercise or something. 30 degree flaps are not necessary and maybe they gave you a bullshit story incase some PAX clicked that they were landing fast.
Cmsgop From United States of America, joined May 2000, 137 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5847 times:
This is an Older Warning regarding the Tail Rudder. Boeing wants 737's to land and a faster rate to avoid an out of control rudder mishap (ALA US AIR)
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5822 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4): This is an Older Warning regarding the Tail Rudder. Boeing wants 737's to land and a faster rate to avoid an out of control rudder mishap (ALA US AIR)
The tail rudder issue didn't restrict landings to less than 30 degrees of flaps, though.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5798 times:
Quoting Cmsgop (Reply 4): This is an Older Warning regarding the Tail Rudder. Boeing wants 737's to land and a faster rate to avoid an out of control rudder mishap (ALA US AIR)
In the history of the 737 rudder issue, I've never heard the factor of "crossover speeds" related to the landing flap selection.
In any event, I can't find any sign of some new urgent bulletin prohibiting flaps-30 (and presumably, flaps-40) landings in favor of flaps-15 landings. There are plenty of places around the world where the runways are too short so as to even allow a 737 to land at flaps-15. You sure won't do so at places like EYW, MDW, and BUR, amongst others...
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5765 times:
Strange - first of all, the plane must land at a certain airspeed from a safety standpoint - I cannot imagine that the plane could land at such a higher speed that it could be noticed by the pax!! They sure aren't going to notice a 10-20 knot increase in landing speed.
I also searched bulletins and found nothing!
Perhaps that particualr aircraft had a flap problem and the pilot was BS'ing the pax.
Seems like it was an unecessary comment anyway!
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5053 times:
Quoting Backfire (Reply 9): Pilots don't BS passengers by telling them their aircraft might be unsafe.
Then why did he say that?? Like I said, most pax, if not all, aren't going to notice a 10-20 kt increase in landing airspeed. Ground speed can vary by more than that anyway depending on the headwind.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Boeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4737 times:
I think KLM should have a word with the Capt in question and have him keep such operational details between himself and the F/O in future.
Flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1609 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4516 times:
haha, i would have done the same thing. its a pilot with humor and probably a fun personality! scaring people is the best, epsecially while flying.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
The USAir incident at PIT, I assume that's what you speak of here, happened as the plane was out of 6,000 ft. I'm no 737 pilot, but I somehow doubt flaps are at 30 at 6000 feet.
According to ASN, the flaps were at 1 at that time. Didn't feel like going through the NTSB stuff, time for lunch.
DCrawley From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 371 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4386 times:
I searched around and sure didn't find any AD's on the 737 that are to the beat your Captain was boppin' his head to..
-d
"Weather at our destination is 50 degrees with some broken clouds, but they'll try to have them fixed before we arrive."
Drinkstrolley From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3641 times:
I would have thought it would have made a few people slightly uneasy knowing there was a potential fault with the aircraft, especially in the wake of the Helios incident.
Anyhow, how much faster would he have landed and would it noticeable to the untrained eye. And more's the point, would anbody complain?
AirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3230 times:
Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 17): I would have thought it would have made a few people slightly uneasy knowing there was a potential fault with the aircraft
This was nothing compared to our problem once on a HPa320, the pilot told us that the cargo door was not closing properly due to a broken metal "thing" according to his words and that we would be late waiting for maintanance. All I could think during that 1 hour flight was the Turkish DC10 that exploded in midair due to the cargo door not being closed properly.
DC-10 Levo From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 3432 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3116 times:
I can't believe the pilot actually told the passengers about this and I can't belive it didn't cause panic in the cabin because that would have been the case in the UK .
A330 From Belgium, joined May 1999, 649 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2853 times:
Absolute CRAP!
There is NO directive issued by ANY state prohibiting or even disencouraging the use of Flaps 30/40 On any B737 series aircraft.
The captain probably wanted to do a practice Flaps15 landing, which is totally normal as it is a NORMAL flaps setting, but very seldomly used (except when the procedure during a non-normal situation prescribes the use) as the speeds are higher.
Onece in a while though, it is a good idea to practice it as it changes the landing technique a bit.
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