Julesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 25297 times:
Do commercial airliners actually have a maximum crosswind speed that they are allowed to land in or is it always down the commander to decide if the conditions are too much? I would be interested in learning what those speeds are for aircraft that you pilots fly. Also if any air traffic people could comment on whether they have restrictions on crosswinds?
Thanks for all the answers to my other questions so far,
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 25301 times:
Sidishus From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25298 times:
Under FAR Part 25 aircraft are tested to a"demonstrated" maximum crosswind as part of their certification. In essence this is the highest crosswinds the aircraft flew in during testing. A demonstrated parameter is not a design maximum- like an MMO speed for instance, which if exceeded, may result in loss of the aircraft-but the maximum at which the aircraft was tested to.
The manufacturers and the FAA are very careful with this distinction. It means that the aircraft can conceivably operate in higher crosswinds, but there is no data to say how safe it is one way or the other.
[Edited 2005-11-08 16:19:32]
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Julesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 25282 times:
So how do airports deal with an aircraft coming in when the airport has crosswinds over the max speed allowed? Do they allow go arounds for another try hoping the wind will drop?
Vio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1284 posts, RR: 9 Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 25258 times:
Julesmusician,
Usually for GA aircraft, the PIC makes the decision prior to the flight based on the weather info available to him, as would a pilot flying a heavy. If I see that I have 30 + gusts out there, there's no way I'll go flying. If it's unexpected (which shouldn't be, if you did your homework beforehand), I'll just divert somewhere else.
I really doubt there are many occasions when airliners have to divert because of this. Most airports that have jets coming into them have more than one runway, and the max. crosswind will never exceed that of the recommended manufacturer. If you can't land on RWY 34, then I'm sure 07 will not be a problem.
I hope I'm right about this... Anybody more qualified than me would like to elaborate a bit more?
Thanks
Vio
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
Julesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 25242 times:
There are a lot of airports now that have closed operations on their cross runways....Heathrow for example used to have a runway crossing but now everything lands to the east or to the west, else they don't land...and of course a lot of regional airports are single runway operations...It is an interesting question that if a large jet is flying into a forecast of crosswinds above their operational limit, should they fly at all?!
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 25234 times:
I suppose aerodynamicist types could probably caculate a theoretical absolute limit. Big problem with nearing the published limits is that the atmosphere is a pretty chaotic place. The reported wind, even the peak gust can be exceeded where you are trying to land at any moment and without any warning. Y'all be careful!
I know I have made a landing in a particular type airplane where the wind exceeded the crosswind limits (not carrying passengers for hire) by such a margin that I would never even tell another pilot about it for fear of being thought a liar or a fool. I also know that I had no reasonable alternative to landing and that I was very lucky.
[Edited 2005-11-08 18:41:44]
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Sean1234 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 411 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25209 times:
I suppose the physical limit is when you run out of rudder.
Stoicescu From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 25173 times:
On the airplane I fly a Piper Warrior II the maximum crosswind component is 17 kts however here the weather is not very stable and my instructor told me that he had to land from time to time in 20+ crosswind. However it is very important to know your limits myself for example I am not very experienced and I am still working on my landing in crosswind skills and I will never take chances at this point.
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 25153 times:
Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 8): I suppose the physical limit is when you run out of rudder.
Mikkel777 From Norway, joined Oct 2002, 370 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 25130 times:
Quoting Sidishus (Reply 3): The manufacturers and the FAA are very careful with this distinction. It means that the aircraft can conceivably operate in higher crosswinds, but there is no data to say how safe it is one way or the other.
I flew a C-172 when I did my PPL. During stage 2 stage check (lesson nr 20), the check instructor made me do a divertion to a small airstrip (3845 × 60 ft), with crosswind component of 17G22 knots. The C172 has a demontrated component of 15 knots. Anyway, the normal and short field landings went pretty well, just as well as when the instructor tried to show me how it should be done (my opinion that is). Probably the single lesson I learned the most about crosswind landings
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25128 times:
The Saab 2000 had a maximum demonstrated crosswind component in the manual of "40 knots, not found to be limiting", if I recall correctly. I once landed in a comparable crosswind and would probably not do it again.
I now fly a CRJ-200 and our company limitation is 27 knots crosswind component. I have seen that. The problem on the CRJ is dragging a wingtip. Crosswind landings on the Saab 2000 were far easier than in the CRJ.
SuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 624 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25025 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7): I know I have made a landing in a particular type airplane where the wind exceeded the crosswind limits (not carrying passengers for hire) by such a margin that I would never even tell another pilot about it for fear of being thought a liar or a fool. I also know that I had no reasonable alternative to landing and that I was very lucky.
Buzz From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 697 posts, RR: 24 Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 24863 times:
Hi Julesmusician, Buzz here. Once at an airshow in Eugene Oregon we were wondering what the crosswind limit was on a Lockheed PV-2 Harpoon, and it's not in the Navy's 1944 flight manual. We had about 15+ knots: advance the upwind engine's throttle and be prepared to weathervane into the wind.
I think there's a story out there from the 80's about a Provinceton-Boston Airways DC-3 carefully finding the limit: when it skips sideways on landing, can't develop enough sideways drift at touchdown speed to counteract the crosswind. It was about 25 knots at 90 degrees. The solution was to go back to BOS and wait a few hours until the wind abated.
Tailwheel airplanes are a different animal. You can't land them crabbed. Well, if you do they end up going tail -first the way the nose was pointing on final (the exciting ground-loop). So we learn to slip to a landing: one wing down to drift into the wind (until the spot you're aiming for stops moving) and opposite rudder to line up the airplane with the runway. And stay light on your feet, the wind diminishes as you descend.
With a significant crosswind some of us who fly lowly and slowly in Champs and Cubs will land on a taxiway into the wind instead of down a runway across the wind: ground roll is normally 500-800 feet. With a stiff breeze that's further reduced. Yes... let everyone know what you're doing so you're not messing with the local traffic pattern.
Grass airstrips are my freind! (grin)
TheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1047 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 24846 times:
How come you're more likely to drag a wingtip on a CRJ 200 than on a Saab 2000? Is the distance between the wing and the ground on a Saab 2000 more than on a CRJ?
Quoting Vio (Reply 5): If I see that I have 30 + gusts out there, there's no way I'll go flying
The AF flight into ABZ last night didn't leave the ground in CDG, we got up to 115 MPH hour winds.
Which A/C can land in the strongest winds BTW?
Thanks
The Sorcerer
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
Turnit56N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 24802 times:
Max demonstrated for the ERJs I fly is 30 kts. I've came close, but never exceeded that xwind component.
Quoting Vio (Reply 5): Most airports that have jets coming into them have more than one runway
Interestingly, although most large airports do have cross runways they seem to use them a lot less frequently than smaller airports. Generally, big airports have a lot of parallels and don't use their cross runways. Normally, large aircraft can handle most of the xwinds encountered, so having cross runways is more important for light aircraft that might not be able to get down in 25+ xwind components.
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7): Big problem with nearing the published limits is that the atmosphere is a pretty chaotic place. The reported wind, even the peak gust can be exceeded where you are trying to land at any moment and without any warning.
Well said! When I was flying light aircraft I didn't go out when it was gusting over 30 even straight down the runway. Strong winds can shift so quickly that you can go from perfectly in command to fighting for control in a second. That's not fun when you're 50 feet above the runway.
Quoting Stoicescu (Reply 9): On the airplane I fly a Piper Warrior II the maximum crosswind component is 17 kts however here the weather is not very stable and my instructor told me that he had to land from time to time in 20+ crosswind.
I did most of my instructing (and light aircraft flying) in Pipers. I absolutely love those things. I never feel quite as comfortable slipping a Cessna in, but you can set a cherokee on the wing, mash the rudder and bring it down in a pretty darn strong xwind. I can't even remember what's the strongest I brought it down in, but a cherokee will happily (but usually not prettily) land with a 20+ xwind with a little coaxing. I remember one late afternoon coming in with a commercial student in an Arrow (max demonstrated 17 kts). The ATIS said the winds were directly 90 degrees to the runway, but steady at 16 kts, so no problem taking that runway. My student was a young lady that was easily the best stick-and-rudder student I ever had, so I was surprised that she seemed to be putting some serious effort into the landing. As we turned off the runway, the tower informed us that the winds were 90 degrees to the runway at 24 knots when we landed. I definitely would have encouraged her to take the cross runway if I had known, but she managed to land it on the centerline just fine at over the max demonstrated. Again, as others said....it's absolutely possible to land over the max demonstrated, but generally inadvisable unless you are very familiar with the aircraft and your own abilities. It's not something I would do if I had other options, and the times I have done it I was prepared and willing to do a go-around or two or three (followed by diversion) if necessary.
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