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Winglets On A 777?  
User currently offlineHigney85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 31 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 21217 times:

I personally love the 757 with the winglets, why doesn't the 777 and 767 have them? They obviously help with fuel burn and look great. A 777 would be absolutely amazing with a pair. I heard rumors in the past about the entire boeing fleet getting them but it seems that the 73's and 75's have been the only aftermarket winglet customers....

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineACYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 21237 times:

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
why doesn't the 777 and 767 have them? They obviously help with fuel burn and look great. A 777 would be absolutely amazing with a pair.

The 767-400 series and also the later 777 models (773ER, 772LR) all have raked wingtips, which essentially offer the same advantage.


User currently offlineSlarty From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 342 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 21159 times:

But size matters ... Short-haulers are different than the long-haulers ...

User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21126 times:

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
it seems that the 73's and 75's have been the only aftermarket winglet customers....

There are a few 727s equipped with the aftermarket winglets. Trump and the FL company that does parabolic zero-g flights come to mind. Delta had one or two at one point and I was lucky enough to ride one.

Personally, I think 707 would look great with them. If the USAF decides to upgrade the KC-135 fleet it might even make sense to do.



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User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 957 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21115 times:

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
I personally love the 757 with the winglets, why doesn't the 777 and 767 have them?

Aviation Partners has suggested winglets may be possible for both the 767 and 777, but as of yet, no customer has stepped forward.

Quoting Higney85 (Thread starter):
I heard rumors in the past about the entire boeing fleet getting them but it seems that the 73's and 75's have been the only aftermarket winglet customers....

The only "in-house" winglet designed by Boeing is the 747-400 winglet and the 767-4, 777LR wingtip.

The 737NG and 757 winglets are all provided by Aviation Partners. It is possible that a customer request for AVPB Winglets be fitted during production of a 737NG by Boeing, but they are still Aviation Partners winglets.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6424 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21093 times:

Who will make the 787-3's blended winglets, or the raked winglets of the 787-8 and 787-9?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 21063 times:

Didnt AC express interest in retrofitting their 76S fleet with winglets?


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User currently offlineAIRCANL1011 From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20956 times:

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
didn't AC express interest in retrofitting their 76S fleet with winglets?

Yes they did and are planning to add them while they wait for their new Boeing orders.



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User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20927 times:
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777 winglets are under development at APB. See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/industrie...ral/2005/01/31/seattle_story7.html


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1051 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20874 times:
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Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):

Aviation Partners has suggested winglets may be possible for both the 767 and 777, but as of yet, no customer has stepped forward.

It is because they look ugly  Wink (and yes that is my opinion and I am ready to be personally attacked for my views because that is what people like to do around here recently.)  Yeah sure



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User currently offlineJEdward From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20827 times:

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 8):
777 winglets are under development at APB. See:
http://www.bizjournals.com/industrie....html

AeroWeanie, would you be kind enough to post another link as the one provided is not functional.

Thanks!  Smile



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User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20736 times:
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Quoting JEdward (Reply 10):
AeroWeanie, would you be kind enough to post another link as the one provided is not functional.

Sorry - I had put that in a thread several months ago, so I just repeated it. Here is a newer link:
http://www.flightinternational.com/A...+blended+winglet+applications.html

The article mentions spiroids, so here is a picture of spiroids on a 747:


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 20347 times:

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
Personally, I think 707 would look great with them. If the USAF decides to upgrade the KC-135 fleet it might even make sense to do.

You will never see them on the B-707. But the USAF and NASA did flight test winglets on a KC-135A back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. That was the testing that qualified winglets as a fuel saver. USAF never bought them because winglets reduce the cross wind componets for TO and landings.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 5):
Who will make the 787-3's blended winglets, or the raked winglets of the 787-8 and 787-9?

Boeing.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 9):
It is because they look ugly (and yes that is my opinion and I am ready to be personally attacked for my views because that is what people like to do around here recently.)

As I said, the major drawback to winglets is the reduced cross wind componets. Raked wingtips are much more efficent, and don't reduce cross winds, that is why you won't see winglets on the B-747-ADV.


User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1303 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 20325 times:

Please no blended winglets on the 777 or 767. They've already spoiled the 737 and 757 with that. There must be other ways to save fuel...  Wink


There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineKBFIspotter From United States of America, joined May 2005, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 19566 times:

What ever happened to the 747 Classic application? I saw a picture a while back in a copy of Airliners of APB flight testing the blended winglets on a 742F. I have heard nothing of this since... Is there an update?

Kris



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User currently offlineACYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 19152 times:

Quoting AIRCANL1011 (Reply 7):
Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
didn't AC express interest in retrofitting their 76S fleet with winglets?

Yes they did and are planning to add them while they wait for their new Boeing orders.

I remember reading about that. If I remember the figures correctly, the winglets are supposed to be on the order of 11 ft tall?


User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 18905 times:
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Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 14):
What ever happened to the 747 Classic application? I saw a picture a while back in a copy of Airliners of APB flight testing the blended winglets on a 742F. I have heard nothing of this since... Is there an update?

The program is on hold.


User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 18526 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
You will never see them on the B-707. But the USAF and NASA did flight test winglets on a KC-135A back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. That was the testing that qualified winglets as a fuel saver. USAF never bought them because winglets reduce the cross wind componets for TO and landings.

Great info, thanks! Any chance that they could be retrofitted with raked tips or would this require a new wing design(obviously not practical if this is the case)?



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11160 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 18484 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 9):
It is because they look ugly

THANK YOU! I'm always amazed by the fact that around here people drool over winglets. I mean, they're only winglets!! They're not there to make the plane look better (and in my opinion, on most planes, they make them look worse, a la 320 series), they're there to make them operate better, but only under certain conditions.

Winglets are good for making old wing designs more fuel efficient on long haul flights. But the reason the 777 never had winglets is because if you design the wing from scratch, today's technology allows engineers to make a wing that doesn't have the compromise requiring winglets.

The 737NGs can have the winglets because their wing was designed for short-haul flights. The winglets make them work better for long haul flights.



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User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11160 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 18468 times:

And another thing...

spiroid winglets look awful.

http://www.aviationpartners.com/otherprograms/concepts.html#



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User currently offlineLexer From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18413 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 9):
It is because they look ugly

Yep, they sure are! What I like especially about a 777 is its beautiful, clean wings, pointing slightly upwards. Winglets would ruin that.


User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 18340 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Winglets are good for making old wing designs more fuel efficient on long haul flights. But the reason the 777 never had winglets is because if you design the wing from scratch, today's technology allows engineers to make a wing that doesn't have the compromise requiring winglets.

Not true. As I've said before, any wing benefits from a span extension. A winglet is just a non-planar span extension.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11160 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 18289 times:

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 21):
any wing benefits from a span extension.

Sure, you can expand the wing all the way out to 5 miles on a side, and it will provide more lift than a shorter wing. However, that "wing benefit" obviously wouldn't turn into a "plane benefit."

What I'm saying is that the 777 wing was right-sized and righ-shaped for the mission it performs. Current technology made that possible.

Furthermore, non-planar extensions, if my understanding of them is correct, are not "better" than planar extensions that are designed right into the wing from the start.



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User currently offlineWidebodyphotog From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 917 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 18271 times:

Quoting Lexer (Reply 20):
Yep, they sure are! What I like especially about a 777 is its beautiful, clean wings, pointing slightly upwards. Winglets would ruin that.

If a 4-5% improvement in fuel burn holds true for 777 as it has with 757 then I'm sure many 777-200ER operators would be salivating over it. That amount of improvement in fuel consumption means you can carry an extra 5t of payload or reduce total TOW requirement further reducing fuel burned on the longest routes. At a million or so USD per ship it looks like a bargain compared to springing for an all new 777-200LR to bump up your ACL. Aesthetics aside, the bottom line is the bottom line. IMO if the product is developed, operators will be lined up to get the mod done.



-widebodyphotog



If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18084 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
Sure, you can expand the wing all the way out to 5 miles on a side, and it will provide more lift than a shorter wing.

Lift = weight in cruise, so you don't need "more lift". Increasing wing area does reduce wing loading in cruise, which is not necessarily good. However, the greater wingspan reduces induced drag, as induced drag equals (to first approximation):

CDi = CL^2 / Pi / AR /e

Which dimensionally is:

Di = L^2 / q / b^2 / Pi / e

See that b^2 in the denominator? That is the wingspan squared (L is lift, q is dynamic pressure, Pi is 3.1415... and e is the Oswald Efficiency Factor). Adding span has a squared effect in reducing induced drag.

The span of the 777-200 was mostly limited by gate and taxiway considerations. The original version had folding tips to get around these problems. Airport changes and operating limits ended up solving these problems and the folding tips were never built. Winglets are a way of adding span, while avoiding these problems in most cases.


25 Post contains images BMIFlyer : No, its how you use it that counts Lee
26 ZSOFN : I heard somewhere that the production fitted winglets by Boeing were a couple of feet taller than those provided by APB on a retrofit - can anyone qu
27 AeroWeanie : They are identical.
28 Ikramerica : Right. people either don't understand or tend to forget that the 4 forces on a plane are interrelated. Thus because the four major forces on a plane
29 Dalavia : One question comes to mind having read all the posts in this thread: Could winglets, or differently designed raked wingtips, make enough difference to
30 AeroWeanie : Ikramerica: My problem with the concept of "adding lift" is that lift comes about as a result of something, instead of being something I alter directl
31 Post contains images EI747SYDNEY : Why was That?? Rob
32 Post contains images 777 : Last week I was in GSO (North Carolina) were there is a big Aviation Engineering & Maintenance company and I saw at least two 757 (from Continental an
33 AeroWeanie : The 757 actually has a very good wing. As a measure of how good its wing is, it has the same Mmo as the 767 (.86), but it has less wing sweep (25 deg
34 Alessandro : Read that the B763-ER got new aftermarket winglet from a company on Isle of Wright.
35 TupolevTu154 : Way to go to bump a thread
36 Max Q : Well the 777 can use all the help it can get in the less boring looking department so I cannot see how winglets would hurt.
37 HAWK21M : Was thinking the same, that too with a B767 statement If the Winglets are going to be added for looks,don't forget to cater to the added weight & ext
38 AA388 : 777 with winglets would look sick and while we're at it lets make the whale jet look better by slapping 22 ft winglets on it. -max
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