Cancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 13 Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2245 times:
anyone ever get the chance to use premier's hybrid deicing system? it uses both forced air at a high pressure mixed with glycol to deice the airplane. they say that there are certain times where the air is enough to sufficiently clean the airplane. air is then mixed with the glycol in the nozzle before being sprayed on the airplane in an effort to reduce the amount of fluids used per application. has anyone here been lucky enough to use this system? what's it like. does it live up to the good reports?
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3084 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2236 times:
FX has some at STL. The mechanics, who do the deicing here, are not big fans of the compressed air. They think it isn't as efficient with snow and is worthless when it comes to ice. They end up using a stream of straight type II to deice and use just as much anyway. However, they do enjoy the enclosed cab.
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3084 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2205 times:
They have a small op with only two DC-10s nightly. Rather than pull employees from the sort and loading (which is a pretty efficient job and everybody already has a task) they have the mechanics do it. By the time the aircraft is ready to be deiced the mechanics have completed their daily check and assuming nothing's wrong, they're sitting around.
DC8FriendShip From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 242 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2180 times:
I know United has some in DEN, but as far as I know, they like them. I would love to at least try one out.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31228 posts, RR: 58 Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2098 times:
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3): By the time the aircraft is ready to be deiced the mechanics have completed their daily check and assuming nothing's wrong, they're sitting around
Are they provided training prior to be put on De-Icing duty.
regds
MEL
MissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2072 times:
Here's a link I bumped into, USN testing the Premier system in Maine: http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/p2/servlet/DocServletPrint?wDID=343
We have two of the FMC AirFirst systems here. If we just have a half inch of light snow they sometimes clear planes with just air.
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3084 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2060 times:
MEL,
They're provided with reccurent training every year.
One of the big problems they have with the system here at STL (using the FMC AirFirst trucks) is that the snow is often wet and heavy. Apparently the airport has the third highest consumption of runway deicing fluid nationwide because of the nature of our snow. Unless it's bitter cold outside sweepers are virtually useless here.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31228 posts, RR: 58 Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2047 times:
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 8): Apparently the airport has the third highest consumption of runway deicing fluid nationwide because of the nature of our snow
And how is this Fluid delivered at the Airports.
How is it heated prior to use.
regds
MEL
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3084 posts, RR: 12 Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2045 times:
Spray trucks. I'm pretty sure that the stuff (For the life of me I can't remember what the chemical name is, it will come back to me as soon as the ramp freezes and I start cussing about the landlord not using it on our ramp)they use on the runways isn't heated. There are three large tanks that are used to store the stuff.
Ntspelich From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 764 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1982 times:
Forced air trucks are horrible. They're incredibly slow, you don't have the spray control you do in a bucket with a hose. We had one at BWI but it's out of comission and on its way to some other station after we complained about it so much.
United 717 heavy, you're facing the wrong way. Any chance you can powerback to get off of my deice pad?
Cancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1794 times:
One of the big problems they have with the system here at STL (using the FMC AirFirst trucks) is that the snow is often wet and heavy. Apparently the airport has the third highest consumption of runway deicing fluid nationwide because of the nature of our snow. Unless it's bitter cold outside sweepers are virtually useless here.
the purchace of the FMC trucks sounds like a definite desk decision made without any research having been done into the nature of thier operation.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
QM001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1678 times:
Hello all,
Forced air is a great concept, but like most concepts practically its a disaster as how would you determine hold over time using forced air. I have found in general that forced air actually uses more fluid that usual in most cases.
In principle the same is applicable for the infrared de-icing, at the end of the day, it takes longer than a full de-icing, and secondly, you would have to spray in any form of precipitation anyway.
Such concepts are great for small out of the way airports, but for major hubs, would cause major delays.
Thanks and brgds,
QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
KBGRbillT From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 155 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1655 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9): And how is this Fluid delivered at the Airports.
How is it heated prior to use.
Glycol is delivered to airports usually by tankers over the road or rail cars. It is heated in each individual deicing truck by fluid heaters.
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 10): I'm pretty sure that the stuff (For the life of me I can't remember what the chemical name is, it will come back to me as soon as the ramp freezes and I start cussing about the landlord not using it on our ramp)they use on the runways isn't heated
It's called Urea, but I think that everyone else is talking about A/C deicing not runway deicing.
Quoting Ntspelich (Reply 11): Forced air trucks are horrible. They're incredibly slow, you don't have the spray control you do in a bucket with a hose. We had one at BWI but it's out of comission and on its way to some other station after we complained about it so much.
Once you get proficient with a joystick controlled boom it is virtually as fast as a hand held hose, at least on the FMC Airfirst trucks.
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 8): One of the big problems they have with the system here at STL (using the FMC AirFirst trucks) is that the snow is often wet and heavy.
I think the design of the Airfirst system was intended to remove large amounts of light loose snow real fast instead of using gallon upon gallon of glycol to wash the saturated pink snow of the surfaces. When used for this reason it is extremely fast and effective. I don't believe that it was intended to be effective on wet and heavy snow.
Quoting QM001 (Reply 13): Forced air is a great concept, but like most concepts practically its a disaster as how would you determine hold over time using forced air. I have found in general that forced air actually uses more fluid that usual in most cases.
Explain how using forced air to remove as much frozen contamination as possible before applying deicing fluid would result in using more fluid than without the forced air. It doesn't add up, at the very most it would require the same amount of fluid to remove the same amount of contamination.
ORDsnowman From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 15 hours ago) and read 1606 times:
Lets clear up a bit of this info....
Quoting KBGRbillT (Reply 14): It is heated in each individual deicing truck by fluid heaters.
Actually, there are deicing operations in North America and other parts of the world where the fluid is heated in a central tank and distributed to each truck at a temp of 85C.
Quoting KBGRbillT (Reply 14): Once you get proficient with a joystick controlled boom it is virtually as fast as a hand held hose, at least on the FMC Airfirst trucks.
define virtually????? There is only one truck manufacturer in the world that this is true and that manufacturer is not FMC (or Premier, or Global)......
Quoting KBGRbillT (Reply 14): Explain how using forced air to remove as much frozen contamination as possible before applying deicing fluid would result in using more fluid than without the forced air.
The original discussion began with fluid injected into the forced air, with that i will answer,
Heat breaks the bond between the aircraft and the adhering frozen precipitation. When the equipment manufacturer injects fluid into the forced air the fluid cools very quickly after it leaves the nozzle. Cool deicing fluid is not very effective and has an extremely short time before it refreezes during periods of active falling freezing precipitation.
ORDsnowman From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1526 times:
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29367 posts, RR: 61 Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1520 times:
I don't know of anybody here in Alaska that uses air, save for the US Air Force.
Up here though that forced air system would probably make a lot more sense, since we tend to get a lot more very cold fluffy snow.
Where I worked we used to send our ramper out with a leaf blower and a ladder to get powder off the wings of our aircraft.
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