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Innovations That Could Alter The Aviation Industry  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4352 times:

(Did a search but couldn't find anything that addressed this on Tech/Ops. Maybe the wrong forum?).

I'm referring to real "game changers", like hydrogen fuel, flying wings, etc. I'm no engineer but there are many on this forum. All aerospace companies have teams that deal with future technologies (skunk works) and how to practically apply to the marketplace. What do you think would really set this industry on its head? For sure, a substitute for petroleum distallate fuel. New designs? Composites also for sure. Any other ideas?


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

Check out the 787

Bleedless engines, extenstive use of composites.


User currently offlineSean1234 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4311 times:

A low earth orbit intra-planetary transport craft would be nice. Such a project would require advances in propulsion technology for common scheduled use.


The projects at Skunk Works and Phantom Works are purely military. To apply them to civil aircraft would require the blessing of the gov, or in other words their progression to obsolescence.

[Edited 2005-12-06 06:23:53]

User currently offlineJeffry747 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4255 times:
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How about a Star Trek transport beam. If you could put on in every home the airlines AND auto industry would go bankrupt.

 silly  Sorry, I just couldn't resist.



C'mon Big B, FLY!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 2):
The projects at Skunk Works and Phantom Works are purely military

You're right. I should have put an "e.g." in front of skunk works.  Smile



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineWhiskeyflyer From Ireland, joined May 2002, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4249 times:

consider the following

SAFETY ISSUE
(1) ENHANCED VISION SYSTEM (sometimes called incorrectly night vision)Already fitted to several aircraft such as GV and being tested for others. Its going to make flying safer. It will do what TCAS and GPWS to improve safety
for some
http://www.ainonline.com/Issues/11_05/11_05_nasa_96.htm

TRANSPORT ISSUE
(2) FLIGHT 2000 Basically a way of automating flying navigation, so air taxi services etc can use small air fields, such as the Eclipse aircraft. Is sucessful air taxi will completly alter the way we fly
http://nasdocs.faa.gov/nasiHTML/f2000/1-0VER.html
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/affor...t_messages_solutions/air_taxi.html

CREW
(3) UAVs
so are the pilots days numbered? Some day all aircraft with be automated (but they also said in the 1960s we will not need manned fighter jets, such cruise missles) so we shall see


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 5):
so are the pilots days numbered?

no, they'll just be flying them from a computer thousands of miles away  Wink


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4231 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 5):
so are the pilots days numbered?

no, they'll just be flying them from a computer thousands of miles away

Wonder how many Pax would want to be on board such an Aircraft  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineWhiskeyflyer From Ireland, joined May 2002, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4209 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Wonder how many Pax would want to be on board such an Aircraft
regds
MEL

As many as they will legally allow them.

Remember when ETOPS 60 was such a great thing...ETOPS now is how many hours?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 8):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
Wonder how many Pax would want to be on board such an Aircraft
regds
MEL

As many as they will legally allow them.

No What I meant was...Rephrasing....How many Pax would want to fly on an Aircraft with no pilot on board.
Regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 5):
SAFETY ISSUE
(1) ENHANCED VISION SYSTEM (sometimes called incorrectly night vision)Already fitted to several aircraft such as GV and being tested for others. Its going to make flying safer. It will do what TCAS and GPWS to improve safety
for some
http://www.ainonline.com/Issues/11_0...6.htm

Consider this offering from today's Dallas Morning News:

Taking airplane safety to new heights

Registration may be required.

Snip:
Ten years ago this month, an American Airlines 757 crashed into a mountain near Cali, Colombia, killing 163 passengers. Only four people survived the crash.

The global airline industry moved quickly to install a new generation of ground avoidance systems on their planes to help prevent such an incident from happening again.

Over the past decade, these systems have saved nearly 40 planes from disaster, according to Honeywell Aerospace Electronics, the market leader for the systems.

The technology is now installed in 30,000 commercial planes worldwide, according to the company.

It costs about $100,000 per plane.

American Airlines Inc. helped test and design the hardware.

"This has been a very useful tool in the cockpit, and American is proud to have been involved in its development," said John Hotard, spokesman for the Fort Worth-based carrier. The system's record "speaks for itself."



Delete this User
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

CFIT used to be #1 cause of accidents, now unfortunately mainteance errors are high on the list (if not top?)

Pilotless aircraft would first be 'trialled' on cargo aircraft as there you wouldn't have to be as concerned about having to force passengers on board once they know there isn't a pilot.
However, the German DLR research agency has got a test aircraft flying autonomously (passenger a/c, albeit pilots still in it as a safety precaution) and the military has got UAV's and UCAV's flying around already, so the technology is there.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 10):
The global airline industry moved quickly to install a new generation of ground avoidance systems on their planes to help prevent such an incident from happening again.

Over the past decade, these systems have saved nearly 40 planes from disaster, according to Honeywell Aerospace Electronics, the market leader for the systems.

I don't want to detract too much from what is obviously a great safety accomplishment, but I always take this kind of statistic served up by the manufacturer with a grain of salt.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

If someone invented a revenue model that actually worked, that would revolutionize the industry.  Smile

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 13):
If someone invented a revenue model that actually worked, that would revolutionize the industry.

LOL! It certainly would, but I would argue that endemic economic problems seem most prevalent in the US, because there are many consistently profitable airlines out there.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6451 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Innovations That Could Alter The Aviation Industry

The airline industry sells a product - to bring a person from A to B. If we should look at innovations which can really improve the product, then we should not first of all look at the airliners and their operation. It is already by far the most efficient and comfortable part of the product as seen by the customers.

How to avoid endless check-in queues.
How to avoid endless security queues.
How to avoid endless immigration control queues.
How to be fairly certain that baggage is not lost/misdirected (1.1% of all European baggage didn't make it last year, 2.2% of all KLM baggage).

The only thing which generally works pretty well on the ground is the taxis bringing us to and from the airports. And in the air the regularity is amazingly high when considering the extremely complex machinery involved and also the weather to fight, especially during this time of the year at places like here in Scandinavia.

One thing which has improved a lot on the ground is the airline web sites on which we buy your e-tickets. They used to be really terrible and confusing (and slow), but most are now pretty good. The LCCs showed the way, probably because their business models are so much simpler.

If only some of the "magic" in the air could be copied on the ground...



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3916 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):

Wonder how many Pax would want to be on board such an Aircraft

How many insurance companies would want to insure an aircraft without a pilot and nearly 100 passengers on it...



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 15):

The airline industry sells a product - to bring a person from A to B. If we should look at innovations which can really improve the product, then we should not first of all look at the airliners and their operation. It is already by far the most efficient and comfortable part of the product as seen by the customers.

How to avoid endless check-in queues.
How to avoid endless security queues.
How to avoid endless immigration control queues.
How to be fairly certain that baggage is not lost/misdirected (1.1% of all European baggage didn't make it last year, 2.2% of all KLM baggage).

Prebennorholm raises the most important point about products. In 99.99% of cases, a customer buys the product for it's intended effect, not for itself. To paraphrase the CEO of my company: "The customer wants the hole. The drill is only interesting in so far as it produces the hole." In this case, as Preben (if I may thus abbreviate) says, the customer doesn't care about the plane, he cares about getting there fast, comfortably and with the least amount of being shot by air marshals.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

My 2 cents. Get rid of ownership & control and route rights. Provided they can pass a safety audit any airline can fly from anywhere to anywhere.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 18):
My 2 cents. Get rid of ownership & control and route rights. Provided they can pass a safety audit any airline can fly from anywhere to anywhere.

Indeed. Good for the customer. Also slots get auctioned out to the highest bidder.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineWhiskeyflyer From Ireland, joined May 2002, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3813 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
Quoting ANother (Reply 18):
My 2 cents. Get rid of ownership & control and route rights. Provided they can pass a safety audit any airline can fly from anywhere to anywhere.

Indeed. Good for the customer. Also slots get auctioned out to the highest bidder.

and thats why the EU and USA are having their "open skies" talks. But amazingingly still in the land of big business (ie USA) foreign ownership of airlines is a big political issue

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4451440.stm


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3802 times:

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 20):
and thats why the EU and USA are having their "open skies" talks. But amazingingly still in the land of big business (ie USA) foreign ownership of airlines is a big political issue

Probably has to do with all that air reserve stuff. Strategic considerations always trump the free market, even in the US  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBsergonomics From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

My 2 Euro cents-worth:

1. Pilotless civil passenger aircraft (30 year timeframe)

2. True free flight - no more airways (5-15 year timeframe)

3. Trans-oceanic reduced separation (5 year timeframe)

4. The option of behaving like an intelligent, well behaved passenger or being dumped out of the aircraft (without a parachute) at FL380... (not for the foreseeable future, at least in the countries with the highest percentage of the aforementioned type of passenger).

I regret to say that, whilst we continue with the policy of transporting Self Loading Cargo (SLG - passengers to you and I), we will continue with the model that currently prevails. Those who point towards scramjets etc. as the way to transport us from London to Sydney in less than 3 hours are forgetting the fact that, when it arrives, 50% pf the passengers will be dead, thanks to the acceleration factors. IMHO, the biggest benefits that will come from development (within the short term) will come from advances in air traffic management, rather than the ability to physically transport a breathing body from A to B more quickly.

Enjoy!



The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
User currently offlineAirgypsy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3750 times:

NOW THAT was a great idea. Self loading cargo. I suppose we've all experienced the remote gate transport that carries the plane load of people from the terminal to a "remote" gate. Now just stretch a little further to a 747 with a full width loading system where the passengers are preloaded into a "cabin system" and it is shoved into the aircraft like a magazine after the previous load was removed.
Cabins are cleaned and serviced between loads and airplane passengers aren't the loading delay. A purpose built aircraft with a PAX/Bags load system would do wonders for turnaround. It could even serve as part of the aircraft structure. Anyone remember the C-82 Packet?
Airgypsy


User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
no, they'll just be flying them from a computer thousands of miles away

I can see it now; a ground control located in India or China with one pilot flying 10 to 20 planes at once. All he does is monitor takeoffs and landings and put it on auto pilot for the cruise.  Yeah sure


25 WhiteHatter : Realistically? A turbofan engine of the thrust output which pitches it in the same bracket as the CFM56 or V2500 (hence in the market leading sector)
26 HAWK21M : An Alternate,cheap Fuel to replace ATF eventually is the call of the day I guess. regds MEL
27 Starlionblue : The problem with biofuels is that today they are in most cases more expensive than fossil fuels. But I have high hopes for the future!
28 AsstChiefMark : Prices will come down with more demand. The manufacturing process would become larger as more things are built to run on biodiesel. The cost per unit
29 Dougloid : Diesel aircraft engines for light aircraft.
30 WhiteHatter : if there isn't any fossil fuel to buy that becomes a moot point. However as AsstChiefMark says, it's all about scale. The global sugar and corn indus
31 Jafa39 : True, The Junkers 88, made very distinctive sound and was slightly harder to shoot down as diesel isn't really into exploding. Plenty of additives av
32 Post contains images FLY2HMO : I think the next innovations, which are hopefully not to far away, is the elimination of (most) ground based nav equipment (VORs,NDBs, etc) and highly
33 Turnit56N : LAAS - GPS enhancement system predicted to be so accurate, it'll allow Cat IIIc precision on a GPS approach, pretty much eliminating the need for all
34 Post contains links and images 777 : Here below my opinion about one of the most revolutionary ideas that can really change the Aviation sector in the next years, both for military and ci
35 Pyrex : Theoretically turbine engines can burn anything so that isn't too hard to accomplish. The problem is producing biofuel in enough quantities. Existing
36 DrDeke : Ehh, insurance companies are much more logical and calculating than the average "self-loading cargo" unit. Tests will determine the statistical proba
37 Julesmusician : The "Check in Cafe" with coffee on tap and customers take a number and sit down and get called. All desks serve all airlines. Immigration should be n
38 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : I can show you plenty of such engines, all for model airplanes. http://www.kyosho.co.jp/web/products...ies/accessories/motor/motor-e.html What? No "W
39 Lumberton : Didn't Pratt announce that they were going to go with a geared turbofan proposal for the NG narrow bodies? I believe that they will be doing this as
40 Starlionblue : Wasn't this the SuperFan for the 340 that never materialized?
41 Post contains links Airfoilsguy : sure, now the trick is to keep it from crashing all the time. In-flight testing of the controversial V-22 Osprey "hybrid" aircraft, which was halted
42 777 : For sure, as many others challenging projects... unfortunately this is the price that you often have to pay when you introduce a revolutionary innova
43 Whiskeyflyer : can you imagine the protests when his happens. NIMBY syndrome. Trying to get planning permission for a city heliport is hell in most parts of the wor
44 Turnit56N : An idea floated at an aviation management seminar a few years ago included the use of individual containers for pax groups. A family could customize t
45 Jafa39 : You could modify this and adopt the Japanese "Capsule Hotel" concept, maybe even sedate the pax for long haul!
46 Post contains images HAWK21M : What happens in an Emergency enroute regds MEL
47 Post contains images Starlionblue : Eject the capsules with explosives
48 NWDC10 : "ScramJets" will be the future for power plants and not "FanJets" any more. Robert NWDC10
49 Post contains images HAWK21M : Which Direction regds MEL
50 Post contains images Lehpron : First immediate innovations could be regarding the fuel usage of engines as well as materials used in making them, those will be key for a very long t
51 Starlionblue : Of course traditional economics work. Demand is just inelastic. More traditional microeconomics. I'm not saying biofuel will never take over, I'm jus
52 HAWK21M : What are the Biofuel options currently Available. regds MEL
53 Starlionblue : Well, if we stick to the liquid ones: - Bio-oils (given the similarity to diesel, perhaps the most suited): Veg oil, biodiesel. - Bioalchols: ethanol
54 Tavve : Just remember one name: Håkan Lans. His GPS/GLONASS/GALILEO based automatic traffic control and collision avoidance system might make most of the fli
55 Starlionblue : Good old Håkan Lans. Don't get me wrong, I really admire the guy, but your account is very much Sweden centric. As in what you hear on the Swedish n
56 Tavve : You are absolutely right in this and everything else you wrote. I have often wanted to know more about him and the other side of the stories. Regardi
57 Starlionblue : Agreed. I mean it's no wonder most of the patents come out of large corporations. Patenting something is expensive and vicious. So if you want to inv
58 Cloudy : I doubt we will see that in my lifetime, and I'm 30 years old. At least, we won't see unmanned aircraft taking fare-paying passengers. Its not the te
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