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Nasa Shuttle Carrier 747  
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3290 times:

are the lift-dump spoilers on the 747 that nasa uses to transport the shuttle enough to dump the lift that is generated by the shuttle sitting on the back?



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just curious....


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

No.

In fact, there are several of them up there still trying to land.

(smartass mode off)

Apparently.

Considering the usual landing speed of the space shuttle I doubt that, at 747 landing speeds it could generate enough to carry itself and a 747 with ground spoilers deployed. Still, I'll bet that much weight and surface area way up on top like that has to do something with the handling characteristics.

Just got thinking about that tailcone that covers the shuttle rocket nozzles. I suppose that can be carried inside the 747?

I saw this thing (NASA 905) getting washed in SAN one time, back when it still had a sanitized AA paint scheme.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):

Just got thinking about that tailcone that covers the shuttle rocket nozzles. I suppose that can be carried inside the 747?

Not if the usual NASA engineers are involved. NASA is good at many things. economics is not one of them. I saw this interview with some Russian rocket scientists. The interviewer told them that the US had spent $10bn (or something) on Freedom without lofting an ounce of tin into orbit. They were practically in tears when they went on about how much they could have done with that kind of money.


Here are some other fun Space Shuttle and large object carrying planes:

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Photo © Nikolai Ionkine



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Photo © Chris Brown
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Photo © Eric Coeckelberghs


Note that the Myasischev Atlant carried Buran before the An-225 entered service.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineThetuna From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3201 times:

Off topic, but is there some sort of emergency release system in place if there were a fire onboard, engine failure, etc?

Am I correct in saying they used the 747 to tow it up to altitude and release it so the pilots could practice landing?



He just ate the big one! Hog!...get away from that thing!! Just get away from it!
User currently offlineJoness0154 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting Thetuna (Reply 3):
Off topic, but is there some sort of emergency release system in place if there were a fire onboard, engine failure, etc?

Nope

Am I correct in saying they used the 747 to tow it up to altitude and release it so the pilots could practice landing?

Nope. The astronauts practice the shuttle approaches/landings in modified Gulfstream II's fitted with thrust reversers that can be activated in flight, along with a ton of other shuttle related electronics.



I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3186 times:

Quoting Thetuna (Reply 3):

Am I correct in saying they used the 747 to tow it up to altitude and release it so the pilots could practice landing?

Not anymore, but this was done during flight testing with the Enterprise testbed. The purpose was not to practice landings so much as to test the aerodynamics of glide and landing.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3178 times:

Also, during the glide tests the aircraft was not towed. It was actually carried to test altitude atop the 747 in it's normal position. The initiation of the test required the orbiter to separate using explosive bolts and the 747 dropped away from it.


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1261 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3174 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 6):
It was actually carried to test altitude atop the 747 in it's normal position

Almost normal position. The shuttle was mounted with a much higher AoA during the drop tests.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3068 times:
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Quoting Cancidas (Thread starter):
are the lift-dump spoilers on the 747 that nasa uses to transport the shuttle enough to dump the lift that is generated by the shuttle sitting on the back?

I don't know that at 747 cruising speeds a shuttle will generate much, if any, lift ... heck, considering how fast the thing lands, it's probably well below stall speed.

The spoilers were added because the airflow over the shuttle was badly affecting the stabilizers on the 747, introducing HUGE amounts of flutter. They break up the airflow and add additional stabilization.

(All in my armchair aviation engineer opinion, of course - if you know better, please post a correction)

- litz


User currently offlineAvioniker From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3051 times:

Quoting Cancidas (Thread starter):
are the lift-dump spoilers on the 747 that nasa uses to transport the shuttle enough to dump the lift that is generated by the shuttle sitting on the back?

The short answer is yes.
The shuttle is mounted with an angle of attack that provides virtually no aerodynamic lift at landing speed. The idea was for the shuttle to provide as little aerodynamic effect beyond drag as possible.
The outboard verticals are needed due to the masking effect and turbulence on the 747 vertical caused by the shuttle fuselage and the low allowable cruise speed.
The weight is less than a passenger load (close to that of a DC-9-15) easily carried by the ex-AA (905) or the ex-JAL SR (911)



One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Just got thinking about that tailcone that covers the shuttle rocket nozzles. I suppose that can be carried inside the 747?

I learned that in a similar post that I started asking if the shuttle produced it's own lift during flight, that the shuttles tail cone is actually collapseable and shipped by ground when not in use.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2805 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 10):
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Just got thinking about that tailcone that covers the shuttle rocket nozzles. I suppose that can be carried inside the 747?

I learned that in a similar post that I started asking if the shuttle produced it's own lift during flight, that the shuttles tail cone is actually collapseable and shipped by ground when not in use.

See!!! No logic Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2717 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 10):
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Just got thinking about that tailcone that covers the shuttle rocket nozzles. I suppose that can be carried inside the 747?

I learned that in a similar post that I started asking if the shuttle produced it's own lift during flight, that the shuttles tail cone is actually collapseable and shipped by ground when not in use.

See!!! No logic

They might save money by shipping it UPS ground.  Big grin

NAH... Smile


User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

Quoting Litz (Reply 8):
I don't know that at 747 cruising speeds a shuttle will generate much, if any, lift ... heck, considering how fast the thing lands, it's probably well below stall speed.

Probably not since the NASA birds are speed and altitude restricted when transporting the orbiter. If I remember correctly, the limitations are 250 KIAS and 10,000 feet altitude.



"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineRC135U From United States of America, joined May 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

What does NASA use these two 747s for (if anything) when not lugging a
Shuttle around?


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2655 times:

they're house on the ramp at PMD i think... if not there then it's MHV. yes, they are speed and altitude restricted to 250K but i think it's higher than 10000ft.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineEksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1315 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2644 times:
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Here is a better view of the rear of the SCA. This is timely as the picture was just added with the last 24 hours.  Smile


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World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 13):
Probably not since the NASA birds are speed and altitude restricted when transporting the orbiter. If I remember correctly, the limitations are 250 KIAS and 10,000 feet altitude.

I believe they are able to cruise at 15,000' and below with the orbiter on top.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBuzz From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 697 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Hi Cancidas, Buzz here. I recall going to a NASA presentation about moving the Shuttles back to Kennedy Space Center after they land at Edwards AFB.
The SCA 747 has little problem carrying the weight, but the drag is considerable. So they cruise low, in the FL150 to FL180 range. The fuel burn is a lot higher than a normal 747 at this altitude... as well as the drag. So it's a 2 day trip to get across the country, they often stop in Houston for fuel.
And there's a pathfinder aircraft, i forget what kind they used. The pathfinder makes sure that there's no significant weather or turbulence for the SCA 747 to plow through.
I don't recall what the internal structural mods were to handle the external load on the fuselage, i bet that fuselage ripples a bit when they touch down. I was intrigued to read of the mods that were done during the Enterprise drop tests so the SCA 74 crew could parachute out of the 747 if they had to, it was similar to what the KC-135's have.
g'day


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