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Etops Islands  
User currently offlineJafa39 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2483 times:

I was reading about an a/c that landed at Midway Atoll and then, thinking about ETOPS Airstrips that are maintained purely or mainly for ETOPS purposes.

Are there tiny islands in the middle of nowhere with a skeleton staff just waiting for an emergency or do these strips serve other purposes and are fairly well populated?

Any pics available? the whole scenario intrigues me!

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6582 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

I don't fly any polar routes, but apparently there are airfields up there designated for emergency only, because apart from a runway, there is little else there. Not even sure what staff they have. I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2340 times:

Quoting Jafa39 (Thread starter):
Are there tiny islands in the middle of nowhere with a skeleton staff just waiting for an emergency or do these strips serve other purposes and are fairly well populated?

No, there are no 'ETOPS Islands'. The routes that airlines set up are done so that they fly within the ETOPS range of the aircraft, and still take the most direcet route. With ETOPS there really isn't any place on the earth they can't go.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2329 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I don't fly any polar routes, but apparently there are airfields up there designated for emergency only, because apart from a runway, there is little else there. Not even sure what staff they have. I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

Hey dude, on the polar routes, most of the airfields used are actually active airports, and are not kept open for ETOPS purposes. They are designated for emergency only simply because they're...well...shite little places. In Siberia, quite a few ex-military and civilian airfields are there to support the local population (because there are no roads), or for mining and gas production use. We can use those airports for emergencies (and the runways up there are quite long for some of them), but that's like playing Russian roulette. Pardon the pun.

This holds true for Northern Canada, Norway, Greenland and Alaska also. Either the airport infrastructure is insufficient, or the runway lengths are not quite adequate. So they are designated for emergencies only (the plane is on fire), and not for other types of diversion (we ran out of cappucino).

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
No, there are no 'ETOPS Islands'. The routes that airlines set up are done so that they fly within the ETOPS range of the aircraft, and still take the most direcet route. With ETOPS there really isn't any place on the earth they can't go.

However, it has been said that places like Midway, for example, are partly funded by Boeing to keep them open so that they can allow transpacific ETOPS flights to continue, even as the U.S. Navy have deemed them to be surplus to requirements. But that was in the days of 180min ETOPS certifications. I am not sure with the newest ETOPS certs whether or not they are required anymore.


User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2326 times:

Here is a nice little web site to show where your ETOPS range will take you.

http://gc.kls2.com/


User currently offlineJafa39 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2323 times:

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 3):
not for other types of diversion (we ran out of cappucino).

That would be known as an "Auckland Emergency" down here!  Smile

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 3):
However, it has been said that places like Midway, for example, are partly funded by Boeing to keep them open

Yeah, I was wondering about that.


User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2318 times:

I was reading the FAA requirements for diversion airports on ETOPS rules. It is certain what you must require and as said "if you land at an airfield and need to evacuate the aircraft, and then find there is no where for 200 + passengers to go in -20c in the snow, then this would not be a suitable diversion airfield  Smile"

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
No, there are no 'ETOPS Islands'.

That's just not true. There are. Midway is one of them. There are others funded by various governments to provide for emergency.

N


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
That's just not true. There are. Midway is one of them. There are others funded by various governments to provide for emergency.

Yea, OK... maybe back in 1933, but not now.. there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters. Manufatures do not pay to keep island set up as safett stop overs as they did in the 1930's

[Edited 2005-12-19 03:16:07]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBuckFifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2146 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
Manufatures do not pay to keep island set up as safett stop overs as they did in the 1930's

It is in literature, Boeing has done so, as recently as the 90's, although I have no updates on the matter.

Please don't ask me to look it up for you. If you are really interested, please do a google search yourself.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters

And this isn't true either. Not all aircraft are certified with the high ETOPS limits you speak of. However, you can check that yourself also.


User currently offlineQxeguy From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

What is "not quite an island"?



I fly boxes. Boxes don't bitch. Boxes don't barf. Boxes don't get drunk and do a number 2 on the beverage cart.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2039 times:

Quoting Qxeguy (Reply 10):
Quoting CX flyboy (Reply 1):
I know they aren't quite islands (unless you use a little imagination), but they might as well be!

What is "not quite an island"?

I think he means places in the middle of Siberia and so forth. While not islands, their isolation makes them equivalent.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2030 times:

Maybe that is where the people are on the show 'Lost'.. ETOPS Island...!! A scary place were a mad scientist lives and terrorizes all that land on the island..? Yea, that's it


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 2019 times:

Just thought this was of interest to the thread:

FRENCH PASSENGER JET MAKES EMERGENCY STOP IN SIBERIA
Received Saturday, 17 December 2005 19:50:00 GMT
MOSCOW, Dec 17 (AFP) - An Air France Boeing 777 made an emergency landing at Irkutsk in Siberia Saturday when one of its two engines broke down on a flight from Seoul to Paris, airport authorities said.
An Air France spokesman said the plane carried 246 passengers and 17 crew, revising the number of passengers earlier given by Russian authorities who said the passengers were taken to hotels in Irkutsk to await the arrival of a back-up plane on Sunday.
Air France said the plane had landed normally. "It was re-routed for technical reasons," said the company in Paris, confirming that one engine had broken down.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6772 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1984 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters.

By "ETOPS parameters" you mean ETOPS 330?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
there is nowhere on the planet that an ETOPS plane can not fly a route and not be within ETOPS parameters.

By "ETOPS parameters" you mean ETOPS 330?

If that is the case, there are plenty of places left outside ETOPS range. ETOPS 330 is hardly something every ETOPS plane and operator can handle, or would want to.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
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