Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent  
User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Can any engineers shed light on how they prevent counterfeit items for aircraft coming into the chain? What preventable measures are in place to prevent this, and is it considered a large problem amongst engineers?

J

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

i had an old lecturer who went up to a tyre manufacturer at one point, they had an old brake unit from an aircraft lying around, he asked if he could have it as a display example for our college! they agreed but before they would let him take it, they insisted on taking an angle grinder to it to make sure it didnt wind up back on an aircraft!

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
Can any engineers shed light on how they prevent counterfeit items for aircraft coming into the chain? What preventable measures are in place to prevent this, and is it considered a large problem amongst engineers?

its more of a storkeepers job!

counterfeit parts is a huge business!!


User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 1):
counterfeit parts is a huge business!!

I read a magazine article several years ago that quoted a former drug dealer saying that fake A/C parts was more lucrative than drugs, and less risk.


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 2):
read a magazine article several years ago that quoted a former drug dealer saying that fake A/C parts was more lucrative than drugs, and less risk.

i can well believe it!
when you consider the amount aircraft spares are woth you can see why!
an oven alone is worth £12,000


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

People have been caught re-selling parts purchased from Boeing's surplus store in Kent, Washington.

Because of these morons, they will no longer sell full sheets of honeycomb panels. That really hurt the guys that were using it for non-av applications.

They also have really gone overboard on obliterating part numbers recently. I bought 20 feet of seattrack extrusion and every few feet someone removed the part number by grinding at least .05 deep.

Tod


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4647 times:

Quoting Tod (Reply 4):
People have been caught re-selling parts purchased from Boeing's surplus store in Kent, Washington

what kind of stuff can you buy here Tod?


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

Check this out:

http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/unapprovedparts.htm

Here in the US they are called suspected un-approved parts. There have been changes that require you to get documentation (traceability) of the part from when it was made or purchased from an approved source.

There are bogus parts that are made that are substandard and are genuine dangers to aviation safety.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

As a matter of fact, I published an article on this subject in the Journal of Airl Law and Commerce back in 1996 when I was in my last year of law school. Send me an email and I'll send you a pdf. It's a hair raising story.

User currently offlinePurdueAv2003 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 251 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Most airlines get a report listing recently discovered unapproved parts vendors. The materials department also works closely with QA and engineering to insure purchased parts meet FAA and manufacturer requirements, especially with PMA parts.


Ptu = Ftu X Anet (not to be confused with a.net)
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

The Stores In Charge gets the Approved parts thru an Approved Vendor,accompanied by proper Documentation.Every Rotable part replaced is well documentated & can be history traced if needed.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4523 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 5):
Quoting Tod (Reply 4):
People have been caught re-selling parts purchased from Boeing's surplus store in Kent, Washington

what kind of stuff can you buy here Tod?

It's hit and miss. The stuff changes all the time because it's what Boeing is getting rid of and not as good as it was 10 - 20 years ago.

Obsolete, surplus or damaged materials
Misc fasteners and other hardware
Computers
Office funiture
Dull drill bits
Misc aluminum extrusions (not much any more, some retired guys know when the good stuff arrives)
Flight cases
Aircraft seats (haven't seen any in a long time though)
Old tooling
Just plain junk

It can be all of the above and much more or nothing but garbage.

Tod


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4520 times:

sounds interesting! is kent near everit?
might be worth a visit when i make it out there one day!


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
is kent near everit?

Boeing Surplus is on the south side of Kent and is about 15 (just guessing) miles SE of SEA and about (guessing again) 60 miles south of Everett.

Tod


User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/surplus/retail/

User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
As a matter of fact, I published an article on this subject in the Journal of Airl Law and Commerce back in 1996 when I was in my last year of law school. Send me an email and I'll send you a pdf. It's a hair raising story.

I tried to email you but in your profile the email address is withheld. Please email the pdf to Z28Shark69@aol.com
Interesting stuff i bet.


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4461 times:

Quoting 777WT (Reply 14):
your profile the email address is withheld

and please send a copy to:

tod701@aol.com

thanks,
Tod


User currently offlineTbanger From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 266 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
Can any engineers shed light on how they prevent counterfeit items for aircraft coming into the chain? What preventable measures are in place to prevent this, and is it considered a large problem amongst engineers?

Simple...airlines employ outstanding Purchasing Officers like me to make sure this stuff doesn't creep in. If I am buying surplus spares, I ask for a faxed copy of the release first. If I am not happy with it, I don't buy it.

Word of mouth is the fastest way for news to travel. If an airline or supplier find they got ripped or suspect a place of being dodgy, they tell everyone they know. Soon the dodgy broker is lining up in the dole queue.

Don't buy spares from Ebay. Only use respected / known dealers.

We (airlines) have extensive quality measures in place to prevent this sort of thing occuring. With our company, the supplier must first be an approved vendor. If they are an MRO (Maintenance Repair Organisation) than they need to provide there FAA/JAA or equivalent approval certificate. They must also provide us with their capabilities list....part number specific. IE the list cant say "O/H Saab main wheels" It must say 5010488 or 5010488-2" etc.

If they are a spare parts vendor, they must also supply us with the equivalent to a FAA or JAA Certificate of Approval. They can supply us with any part they wish, provided they supply us with a correctly signed and dated Certificate of Conformance or for lifed and serialised components a FAA 8130-3 or JAA form 1 or equivalent must be supplied.

For instance. I will not accept a part 121 trace for a serialised or lifed component. If I don't get an 8130-3 or equiv, then I don't buy it.

Some of my suppliers part out aircraft for a living. I will not accept a removal component tag for any item removed. My suppliers know, that they must provide me with a "Part Removal Authorisation Form". This form is signed, dated and also gives the rego and msn number of the aircraft. It has the removal engineers / mechanics license number on it.

When I find a new supplier, I must submit a form to our Quality Assurance Manager requesting approval of a new supplier. He will then chase the Supplier up for their applicable approvals. Once he is satisfied that the supplier meets our guidelines, he then notifies me that all is good to go. I then set the supplier up as an "Approved Vendor". Every 12 months, the QA manager will do an audit on our "Approved Vendor" list to ensure that the suppier is meeting the guidelines set out in the Company Procedures Manual.

When our stores personnel receive a part, they check the paperwork against the goods to ensure that there are no discrepancies. Sometimes a supplier may send a part and say that it is an alternate part number to that which was ordered. If this is the case, then we follow another set of procedures. Basically, any alternate supplied without the correct FAA-PMA documents will be rejected and the part will be returned for credit. If it is recognised in the applicable IPC, then we will accept it as an alternate based on the IPC reference.

Without quoting our entire procedures manual, extensive measures are in place to prevent these parts creeping in. The system isn't idiot proof, but works o.k.

If I was ever caught buying known bogus spares, then not only would I loose my job, but I would kiss goodbye to any career in the avaition industry. As I mentioned above...word of mouth travels very fast. One of my suppliers said to me earlier this week, after I tipped him off about a company that ripped me off a few years ago..."This industry is self policing....police-ing." What almost turned out a multi-hundreds of thousands deal over the next 2 years turned into a dead rubber all because he pulled a shonky on me 5 years ago. What goes around comes around.

PMA's were mentioned above. PMA's are parts manufactured under a special FAA approval. Parts Manufacture Approval. To obtain this approval, you must supply the FAA with the exact specs of the part that you wish to copy and the exact specs of the part you wish to fabricate. 99% of the time, the PMA part is of better quality to the OEM part. 100% of the time, the PMA part is somewhat cheaper.

My company will not accept a PMA part as an alternate, unless the Aircraft Manufacture is aware of the PMA and issues a "No Technical Objection" for the use of the PMA part.

I hope I haven't rambled on too much.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):
Don't buy spares from Ebay. Only use respected / known dealers

Do people purchase Items for Aircraft use from Ebay.

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):

Very Well Illustrated.I found it very Informative.Appreciate your sharing details.
Thanks.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4416 times:

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):
Simple...airlines employ outstanding Purchasing Officers like me to make sure this stuff doesn't creep in

modest too eh!?!?  Wink


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting Tbanger (Reply 16):
My company will not accept a PMA part as an alternate, unless the Aircraft Manufacture is aware of the PMA and issues a "No Technical Objection" for the use of the PMA part.

Thank you. By requesting a NTO you have given the original manufacturer visibility that someone is manufacturing parts using their data. Sometimes this propriatary data has not been legitimately obtained.

FAA 8130-3 or JAA form 1 or equivalent must be supplied.

 checkmark 

Tod


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting Tod (Reply 19):
Thank you. By requesting a NTO you have given the original manufacturer visibility that someone is manufacturing parts using their data. Sometimes this propriatary data has not been legitimately obtained.

Doesn't make any diff. The FAA will not disclose to the original designer/manufacturer the source of the data the PMA manufacturer used to gain approval, give them the blueprints under discovery or FOIA because it's exempted under "trade secrets".
Pratt and Whitney tried to do that and they failed in court. It's all about reverse engineering-how far can you go? It's one of my future projects.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 20):
It's one of my future projects.

Elaborate  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4371 times:

I did see this today.....

Airlines using uncertified repair shops
FAA Inspector General hits airlines, safety agency, for lack of oversight of critical repair work.
December 20, 2005: 8:51 AM EST

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Airlines are using uncertified workers for critical maintenance work, which operate without enough oversight of either the carriers or the Federal Aviation Administration, according to an agency investigation.

Air carriers have used non-certificated facilities for years, said the report by the FAA's Inspector General, but mostly for minor maintenance tasks. The report said that has changed in recent years, as it identified 21 facilities that performed maintenance critical to the airworthiness of the aircraft.

"Some of the critical repairs we identified that non-certificated repair facilities perform include engine replacements and adjustments to flight control systems," the report said.

The nation's major airlines, struggling to cut costs and stem operating losses since 2001, spend $4.9 billion annually for aircraft maintenance, with more than 50 percent of this maintenance work being outsourced, according to the report. But the report did not detail what percent of the outsourced work is being done at the non-certified facilities.

The report said the use of a non-certified facility has already been cited as a key factor in one fatal crash -- the January 2003 Air Midwest crash in Charlotte, North Carolina. "The mechanics incorrectly adjusted a flight control system that ultimately was determined to be a contributing cause of the crash," said the report. All 21 people on that flight were killed in the crash.

The report said that both the agency and the airlines are not exercising enough oversight of the non-certified facilities doing work.

"Air carriers we reviewed relied primarily on telephone contact to monitor maintenance work performed by non-certificated facilities rather than onsite reviews of the actual maintenance work," said the report.

The probe was requested by U.S. Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., the ranking member of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure.

"I have said repeatedly that the FAA must require airlines to operate at the highest level of safety," said a statement from Oberstar. "Airlines contract out this maintenance work to save money, but with those savings we must ensure that there is not an erosion of the margins of safety and a greater risk to the traveling public and innocent souls on the ground."

Oberstar's home state is also home to Northwest Airlines, which shifted most of its maintenance work outside its hubs in Minneapolis and Detroit to outside contractors in August. An airline spokeswoman said she could not immediately answer what percentage, if any, of the airline's outside contracts are certified.

The demand to use outside contractors for so much maintenance was one of the issues that led the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association to strike the airline in August. The airline has used the contractors and replacement workers to do its maintenance work during the ongoing strike, but it has since filed for bankruptcy court protections.

Northwest was not one of the airlines included in the Inspector General's study, which reported its investigators visited with American Airlines and its American Eagle feeder airline, Continental Airlines and its Continental Express feeder airline, AirTran Airways and Frontier Airlines.

David Castelveter, spokesman for the Air Transport Association, the industry's trade group said that it had seen the report but would have no comment until it had an opportunity to study it.


User currently offlineAmtrosie From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 22):
I did see this today.....

Airlines using uncertified repair shops
FAA Inspector General hits airlines, safety agency, for lack of oversight of critical repair work.
December 20, 2005: 8:51 AM EST

You are quoting a media source, who with a couple of misplaced words can alter the facts dramatically.

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 22):
The report said the use of a non-certified facility has already been cited as a key factor in one fatal crash -- the January 2003 Air Midwest crash in Charlotte, North Carolina. "The mechanics incorrectly adjusted a flight control system that ultimately was determined to be a contributing cause of the crash," said the report. All 21 people on that flight were killed in the crash.

While I will not say if that facility was 100% right in its practices (an inspector giving OJT and supervising simultaneously) NOT CERTIFIED? They were a part 145 station- that is the certification.
Be careful what you read!!

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 1):
its more of a storkeepers job!

WRONG!!!! The A&P is the one who is responsible!!! He/she signs the book, they take the responsibility. A company may hold their store's people responsible, but the FAA holds the A&P responsible. WE are the ones who could be hauled into court, etc.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4342 times:

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 23):
WRONG!!!! The A&P is the one who is responsible!!! He/she signs the book, they take the responsibility. A company may hold their store's people responsible, but the FAA holds the A&P responsible. WE are the ones who could be hauled into court, etc.

Well, that's what all the people upstream always say when they're getting their feet held to the fire. It seems a bit disingenuous, considering the kind of choices A&P mechs have to make every day, any one of which could a) kill a load of civilians or b) find the mech out in the street with their rollaway looking for another job because they wouldn't sign off on a repair.


25 Tbanger : What the storekeeper does is checks that everything is in order prior to giving the part a batch number. What this batch number does is provides trac
26 Matt72033 : i meant it in the context that the stores department will check the components form 1 before the parts ever even get close to the engineers!
27 Amtrosie : Legally, it is the sole responsibility of the individual "INSTALLING" the part. Check the FAR's
28 Tod : You are correct about the FAA not disclosing the PMA data source, but to partmark a PMA part with someone elses part number the FAA requires a level
29 HAWK21M : Is there any reports on the discussions on the net. regds MEL
30 Tod : Haven't seen any, but I haven't looked very hard. Just now, I scanned in a few pages on the subject of PMA from a FAA Standardization seminar. Contac
31 HAWK21M : Emailed you. Awaiting the same. regds MEL
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Counterfeit Parts In The Aircraft Industry Prevent
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
An Aircraft In Development In The UK! posted Tue Apr 5 2005 22:40:11 by Jbirchall
Can Aircraft Doors Be In Open In The Air. posted Sun Aug 15 2004 13:03:12 by Djmatthews
Aircraft With Emergency Exits In The Cockpit posted Mon Aug 9 2004 04:58:31 by Goldenshield
Getting A (non-pilot) Job In The Industry posted Thu Nov 13 2003 06:57:32 by N844AA
Safest Commercial Aircraft In The World posted Wed Nov 21 2001 01:44:27 by BOEING747400
What Is This In The Delta MD-11 Cockpit? posted Mon Oct 30 2006 10:11:58 by MD11Fanatic
RVR Fog And Holding In The Stack - Questions posted Mon Sep 25 2006 21:35:59 by Julianuk
Experience In The Purchase Dept Of An Airline? posted Thu Aug 24 2006 09:04:45 by Nohag
Do Pilots Use The Handholds In The Cockpit? posted Tue Aug 8 2006 17:08:56 by MechEngineer
Pilot Hiring In The Future posted Mon Jul 17 2006 23:59:07 by AirWillie6475

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format