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More Than 2 Crew In The Cockpit?  
User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 449 posts, RR: 5
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 6008 times:

Just wondering is there any flights nowadays that have more then 2 crew members working in the cockpit? I know airlines love the B747-400 because it only requires 2 pilots, unlike the earlier versions of the B747 that required 3 or 4 pilots in the cockpit.

Grimey

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBRAVO7E7 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1840 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 5998 times:

Any flight between 8 and 12 hours requires a relief pilot, and any flight over 12 hours requires two relief pilots, for a total of four pilots.

User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 5991 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Hi Grimey,

for very long flights there you need to have some sort of relief pilot! we at Lufthansa have a so called Senior First Officer! If the flight is longer than I think 8 hours, there need to be 3 pilots on that flight! But not the whole flight! After take off and some sort of meal, one goes to the crew rest and takes nap, then the next and finally the last... so, there are always at least 2 pilots in the cockpit...

WILCO737
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 5981 times:

Yes, if flights are longer than a certain limit, one or two extra pilots may be needed to stretch the allowable flight and duty time.

At the basis, there's the flight and duty times as determined by law. On top of that, the airlines collective bargaining agreement with the pilots may have more restrictive flight and duty time limits.

Other times when you'll find additional pilots in the cockpit is when some form of instruction or examination is in progress.

Grbld


User currently offlineWdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 961 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 5970 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):
Hi Grimey,

for very long flights there you need to have some sort of relief pilot! we at Lufthansa have a so called Senior First Officer! If the flight is longer than I think 8 hours, there need to be 3 pilots on that flight! But not the whole flight! After take off and some sort of meal, one goes to the crew rest and takes nap, then the next and finally the last... so, there are always at least 2 pilots in the cockpit...

WILCO737

I have been fortunate enough to fly jump seat several times on LH on the 744 and once on the A333..... you are indeed correct, the flights from Los Angeles to Frankfurt has 3 pilots so to speak, the Captain, SFO, and FO. On Frankfurt-Joburg the SFO went to sleep after it was ok to turn on the electronics. Then in Joburg the SFO stayed a day less than the rest of the crew, I think instead of flying the shuttle to cape town (back when it was Frankfurt-Joburg-Capetown) the SFO stayed back at the hotel, and went with the crew departing for Frankfurt that evening.

Perhaps you know my step mother..... Birgit Leiser? she is a Purser II and flies only long hauls. My dad and I are flying to SFO tomorrow to meet up with her for the Xmas flight.

[Edited 2005-12-22 20:49:56]

User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 5937 times:

Well, all airlines flying the older 743 and 742 versions have the FE in the cockpit....AI still flies a small fleet of them.....4 aircrafts I believe.....

User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5917 times:

Quoting BRAVO7E7 (Reply 1):



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):



Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):

i think he meant if there was a FE aboard many aircraft these days!
does the 732 have a FE?


User currently offlineGrimey From Ireland, joined Jun 2005, 449 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 5):
Well, all airlines flying the older 743 and 742 versions have the FE in the cockpit....AI still flies a small fleet of them.....4 aircrafts I believe.....



Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
i think he meant if there was a FE aboard many aircraft these days!
does the 732 have a FE?

Thanks, both of you understood my question, I meant was there more then 2 pilots working at the same time; for example Pilot, Co-Pilot, Flight Engineer, Navigator etc.
I know about a pilot can only fly a certain amount of hours until he has to take a rest and some other pilot takes his place.

Grimey


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

well DC10's have FE's
A300?
A310?
727
747-1/2/300SP
Tu154
L1011
DC8
DC9
AN225
ll96


User currently offlineStoicescu From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5861 times:

DC-9 doesn't have a FE, A310 doesn't have a FE also and the A300 only the first versions required a FE.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16994 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5850 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
i think he meant if there was a FE aboard many aircraft these days!
does the 732 have a FE?

The 737 has no F/E position on any version.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 8):

A300?
A310?

The early 300s had F/Es. But the position was removed, IIRC starting with some Garuda planes.

Some 767s (for Ansett and Aeroflot?) had a (totally pointless) F/E position due to (equally pointless) union regs.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5804 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Some 767s (for Ansett and Aeroflot?) had a (totally pointless) F/E position due to (equally pointless) union regs

was this the extremely small FE panel?
wasn't sure on the 300 or 310!


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1559 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5793 times:

I couldn't catch the days of 3 men cockpits as we caught the FMS era.The aircraft I flew 737 and 320 families were all glass cockpits and certified for 2 men ops.

In this month as the newcomers to our fleet arrives(the new type rated or transitioning from another type to 320) as a senior FO often fly as a safety pilot(whose job is to take controls if the captain becomes incapacitated and help the new guy about the FO jobs and airplane systems)

During the times I have been observing the flight I noticed the the extra set of eyes looking behind the two in the cockpit has a wider angle of sight.From there you can see everything they do good or not so good.

Although its not commercially feasable anymore but a trained 3 pilot in the cockpit seems be safer in my opinion.( But the jumpseat must be more comfortable ofcourse after a 10 hour duty on the jumpseat really hurts your buttom  Smile )



Widen your world
User currently offline9VSRH From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5780 times:

All CX flights to Europe, the US and Jo'Burg have 4 crew usually a Capt, F/O, a senior F/O (relief commander) and an S/O. Also Australian routes usually have 3 crew but occasionally 4.

User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5759 times:

The early 300s had F/Es. But the position was removed, IIRC starting with some Garuda planes.

Yes, Garuda had the B4-220FFCC with 2 man cockpits... apparently there's some discussion on whether this was the first 2 man cockpit widebody or not (check the dates... I can't remember).

But the jumpseat must be more comfortable ofcourse after a 10 hour duty on the jumpseat really hurts your buttom

I feel sorry for those on-board Dispatchers/FOOs... 8hr flying on the jumpseat... GA has it on some of their 734s (something to do with availability of radio coverage, weather and all that... I dunno exactly what)... And yes, the on-board engineer... flies jumpseat on full flights into airports without maintenance facilities!

So, you still get a "3 man "crew"" sometimes on a 2 seater (ie. 3 different positions, not talking about relief)

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5738 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 5):
AI still flies a small fleet of them.....4 aircrafts I believe.....

Soon would be gone  Smile

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
does the 732 have a FE

No.B732 has total 4 seats:- P1,P2,1st observer & 2nd Observer.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16994 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Some 767s (for Ansett and Aeroflot?) had a (totally pointless) F/E position due to (equally pointless) union regs

was this the extremely small FE panel?

The 767 F/E panel:


This pic is after "conversion" to a 2 man flight deck:


Pics stolen off an A.nut post a while ago.

Quoting Wing (Reply 12):
Although its not commercially feasable anymore but a trained 3 pilot in the cockpit seems be safer in my opinion.(

The third pilot is nowadays known as TCAS Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5693 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
The third pilot is nowadays known as TCAS

???? What does TCAS have to do with a 3rd Pilot...?? I'd say FMS is a better 3rd Pilot...



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16994 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5685 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 17):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
The third pilot is nowadays known as TCAS

???? What does TCAS have to do with a 3rd Pilot...?? I'd say FMS is a better 3rd Pilot...

It was said in jest since Wing was mentioning how the 3rd flight deck member has a "wider angle of sight".



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5663 times:

Wow Starlion...thanks for the photo, I'd never seen the plumber's panel on the 767.

Look like they just smeared a few panels from the overhead and called it a panel-a clock, the pneumantics panel, hydraulics, fuel, pressurization, and a few other things...oh yes, don't forget the bonus CRT and table. Stuff we look at now as normal flows for a two man crew. Would have been interesting to see how little work everyone had to do.

I think I saw that these Ansett birds found their way to the desert?

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5631 times:

Interesting Pics.Thanks for Sharing.Whats the screen in the 1st pic.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2543 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5615 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
Yes, Garuda had the B4-220FFCC with 2 man cockpits

Originally at least, these were still three man cockpits, just that the traditional sideways facing F/E station was replaced by additional controls on the overhead. The F/E sat behind the pedestal, facing forward. Hence the term Forward Facing Crew Concept.

All A300s are three man crew, except the A300-600 and possibly the FFCC versions. However the F/E on an A300 doesn't have a lot to do in normal operations as the F/E panel is virtually all automatic.

A310s were originally produced with an F/E station, but fairly soon these were replaced when two crew versions became the norm.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 6):
does the 732 have a FE

No.B732 has total 4 seats:- P1,P2,1st observer & 2nd Observer.

It nearly had an F/E station. Some airlines were reluctant to go to 2 crew cockpits initially. Hence the light grey panels on the overhead which were for the engineer to operate.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6761 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

Jetlagged,
I know Airbus had the FFCC 3 man option, but GA operated the 2 man FFCC... I think only Garuda and (not sure about this one) KARAir had the 2 man FFCC... and not sure if anyone adopted the 3man FFCC...

Btw, anyone else but GA operated PW JT9Ds on the A300-B4s ? (Not the -600s!)

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5603 times:

Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 13):
All CX flights to Europe, the US and Jo'Burg have 4 crew usually a Capt, F/O, a senior F/O (relief commander) and an S/O. Also Australian routes usually have 3 crew but occasionally 4.

Hello all,
Is this kind of a waste of resource and money? Why use 4 if 3 is enough? I am sure CX is not that stupid huh?
Merry Christmas!
William



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16994 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 23):
Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 13):
All CX flights to Europe, the US and Jo'Burg have 4 crew usually a Capt, F/O, a senior F/O (relief commander) and an S/O. Also Australian routes usually have 3 crew but occasionally 4.

Hello all,
Is this kind of a waste of resource and money? Why use 4 if 3 is enough? I am sure CX is not that stupid huh?

Often you will have an additional since you need to position him anyway.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 Post contains images LorM : Cmon at least remember to give credit to the guy who took the photographs. . Those pictures Starlionblue posted are photographs by Chris Boulton that
26 Post contains images Starlionblue : Well, I will remember in the future. To be honest I had totally forgotten when and in which thread I got those.
27 HAWK21M : Isn't there a Requirement for x no of hrs of SNY travel for the S/O. Probably its to follow that regulation. regds MEL
28 TristarSteve : Its an EICAS screen, copy of the lower EICAS, but the maint pages are accessible in flight. Last El Al B767 I saw still had it fitted, but no F/E.
29 Stoicescu : It says in the FAR/AIM book it is because of maximum time on duty regulations but I don't have the book in front of me (is in my flight bag) 2 pilots
30 Tom12 : (Appology's dont know how to quote, first day) But yeah Stoicescu is correct AIM does state that - 2 pilots 8 hours, - 3 pilots 14 hours. But doesen't
31 Starlionblue : Welcome to the forums! To quote, select the text and press the "Quote Selected Text" button top right of the post.
32 HAWK21M : Interesting.Thanks. regds MEL
33 Mandala499 : Tom12, Welcome... As far as I know, CX don't fly their 777s long haul at the moment... so no real need for >2 crew on deck. Mandala499
34 HAWK21M : Welcome Tom. Any Particular reason. regds MEL
35 9VSRH : From what I've heard CX only purchased the 772A and the 773s for high density regional routes such as to Singapore, Bangkok, Taipei etc... and not su
36 Post contains links and images DeltaGuy : The overhead panel on that Ansett bird must have been pretty bare- got bored and did a little MS paint to a pic of a normal one... Pilots must have ha
37 Starlionblue : LOL! Well I'm pretty sure Boeing figured they would come to their senses (as they did) and left all the stuff in there.
38 Post contains images HAWK21M : Sure looks weird.Glad the Instruments were left in regds MEL
39 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Almost as naked as the 727 overhead panel...seems like there's nothing there other than lighting controls. I'd have to bring my gameboy along if I wer
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