Are pilots letting this happen? I certainly do not want to be replaced by some geek sitting behind a joystick.
This would take the joy out of aviation for many. For nearly one hundred years, pilots have "slipped the surly bonds of earth," and I hope it continues to stay that way!
Aria From Iran, joined Oct 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1129 times:
DG_pilot
Whooba! The down side is some "men" may have to rely on their personality to pick up chicks in bars....otherwise ...I certainly do not want to be on the receiving end of "enemy fire"...call it stupid, or an unreasoning love for life!..The fact is, this is going to happen, like it or not - at least, with this technology, you may live long enough to appreciate the advantages.
Having said that, I have often wondered why we (the People) don't demand of our leaders that they play a game of chess to determine the outcome...the result is the same, except lots of people get to spend next Christmas with their families instead of being stuck in some sewer of the earth wondering what on earth they are doing there.
As to the stuff about "Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth, and danced the skies on laughter silvered wings, Sunward, I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth of sunsplit clouds etc, etc (I am doing this from memory & have been up for quite a few hours having just returned from the SYD-CNS-NGO-CNS-SYD run....people do not pay for our ego trips...they pay us to get them from A to B, just like a bus...this industry is not there to satisfy our egos, but to provide a service in the safest, quietest & most comfortable way possible...(legally, of course)...the same can be said for the military way of handling a problem...Having said that...yes. I miss the early morning starts, in the country, with no one around, just me and the aeroplane, and all the good stuff, I won't go on ad nauseum, but that is not what professional aviation, commercial or military is about.
Qantas737 From Australia, joined Jul 2000, 738 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1032 times:
Aria, how is the SYD-CNS-NGY-CNS-SYD trip? I sit in my backyard in TSV watching QF059 flying by nearly everyday just imagining what the folks in the aircraft are doing while I look up and watch it fly by. Sad I know, but what else should I do at 10AM when it flys by.
DG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 974 times:
I wasn't posing this on the basis on anyones' ego or about picking up chicks. (I can do that anyway )
Most like to fly more then anything else. It is their life far more then it is their job. I personally want to protect my 'life', if you want to put it like that.
Plus, pilots serve their role quite eagerly. They do a good job. Yes yes, sometimes things go foul, but that is in ALL niches of human existence. There are operator errors at nuclear plants, in trains and ships, coal mines, grain elevators, shipyards, oil rigs, EVERYWHERE. We accept those freak and rare accidents because they are indeed rare and pose little threat at all.
Perhaps I may be mistaken, but you seem to be not taking this push for automation seriously, and in turn, helping to shoot the rest of the pilot/aviation community in the foot.
Spaceman From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 534 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 929 times:
Sure I would love to fly my plane into the gray blue beyond, and fly through between the clouds, but I have to except that human are earthly bound creatures. We can only relay on mechanical things in the skys. And according to age old saying all mechanical thing run into break down in a matter of time. I would say why not let the machine fly the machine to do our dirty work and while we sit back and gain strategic advantage, without lost of human life. Afterall wars are won with the last man standing. However this solution has no heroism in it, and gives one a cowerly feeling. In another way can human fight better than machines that would be a interesting question?
Aria From Iran, joined Oct 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 923 times:
Whoops! I think I have just been put back in my box by a 16-20 year-old...Ouch!
Rule No.1: Never get onto this forum when you have been awake for over 24 hours.
Hi DG_pilot! Perhaps we need to think about the human/automation roles a little more..surely, the role of automation is to make our jobs easier and safer, and one of the best ways to do that is to free up some brain space, so we can think better (after all, that is what we are supposed to do best). Flying a light aircraft, for example, manually in CAVOK conditions around the local countryside doesn't require too much mental dexterity (although it is a lot of fun), flying a heavy jet into a foreign airport in bad weather ...well, I could use all the help I can get! So I do...I use the autopilot as much as possible, so my, admittedly limited, brain power is not taken up with just physically flying the aircraft, but with managing the myriad of factors that need to be managed properly, &, also, I am happy to receive all the support I can get from my other crew member's intellectual efforts! So, expand that concept, & I hope you can see where I stand on the issue. No, I don't believe "pilotless aircraft" are the way of the future (I certainly wouldn't get on one)...but there are applications for automation that free up the human, & allow us to carry out our proper function...management, strategy, contingency planning, figuring out our allowances & overtime forms...& which crew meal to have!!
Galaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 32 Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 901 times:
its the wave of the future, but i dont think this will move to transport type aircraft. Not in my or your life time i think.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
Wannabe From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 674 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 893 times:
There is a good article on remotely piloted recon aircraft in this months Air & Space Magazine. It does briefly mention the plans to use the aircraft for attack purposes, but does not go into detail. One of the major points of the article is that the crafts require a real pilot to fly it remotely. The pilots who are interivewed say that it is harder to fly than a real aircraft because of the lack of physical feedback and the limited vision of a forward looking camera. They also complain that when they get assigned to this duty, usually a 2 year assingment, the hours they fly do not count as flight time. The result is that they lose flight pay and, more importantly, do not accumulate hours that they need should they ever want to continue to bigger birds in the military or jump out to the commercial world. They mention that many pilots, when assigned to this duty, resign rather than accept it. Unfortunately, at least for pilots, I see this trend growing in the future.
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5810 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 888 times:
This is nothing new, it is just the cutting edge technology of an endless development which probably started with the German V1 "buzz bomb" 60 years ago.
Next logical step was probably SAM missiles. Then came reconnaissance drones and cruise missiles.
The next logical step is real combat vehicles, probably mainly for fighting radar sites, armoured ground and naval vehicles and such.
In the beginning war "technology" was man on man with the hands. The sword put the man a couple of feet behind his weapon, and the shotgun a few hundred feet. Today's laser guided weapons on fighter aircrafts has put man several miles behind the action of his weapon. Unmanned combat vehicles puts that development one step further. That's all. The real worrier of the future will probably sit behind a computer screen in an E-3 AWACS or E-6 ESTARS aircraft more than a hundred miles away from the combat zone.
For strategic warfare this development was brought to the ultimate end 40 years ago when the "press of a button" could send a weapon to any place on this planet.
In our lifetime, however, it will only be supplementary to conventional manned warplanes. Remember for instance that during the Gulf War, when searching for Scud missiles, there was no real substitute for going out low and have a clever look out of the window.
But as the "no casualty warfare" system is gaining momentum, then unmanned combat vehicles is the very natural next step, even if it will cost enormous sums to build up a respectable force.
Hopefully this world will become a more peaceful place making such weapons (and all manned war planes) redundant before they are fully developed. But is is no more than a probably rather silly hope.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Chdmcmanus From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 374 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 878 times:
DG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 856 times:
Aria,
First, please get over the fact that I'm a 16-20 year old and continue with the discussion.
"""So, expand that concept, & I hope you can see where I stand on the issue. No, I don't believe "pilotless aircraft" are the way of the future (I certainly wouldn't get on one)..."""
You certainly don't argue that way.
"...but there are applications for automation that free up the human, & allow us to carry out our proper function...management, strategy, contingency planning, figuring out our allowances & overtime forms..."
I have no problem with autopilots (sometimes I think they are used too much, but that is another matter); so lets take that off the table. BUT, obviously I do have a problem with "pilotless aircraft." Like I said, pilots do a good job, as do other complex machine operators, and aviation is already remarkably safe, plus flying is the complete lifestyle, as well as a career, for the men and women who eagerly perform their duties. This is also tied into the loss of moral perspective, as the military puts it.
Pilotless aircraft MAY have a place somewhere, but I'm afraid this would only further their spread into all levels of piloting. In a way, it can be compared to the abolition of slaves. Anti-slavers wanted to simply stop the further the spread of slavery, abolitionists wanted to completely end it everywhere. Lincoln claimed to be an anti-slaver. Proponets of slavery knew that even though Lincoln claimed he would not prohibit slavery on thier land--since it long already had slaves--that eventually it would creep closer and closer and be expanded so that eventually all slavery would be outlawed--as a result of letting it gain a foothold in the first place. Yes, that is a rough example, but yet an applicable one.
Sxmarbury33 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 852 times:
I am truly afraid of pilotless aircraft. Im 15 years old and have been studying aviation all my life. If pilotless aircraft become avalible i will that i have wasted my life. Everyone says that the pilot less aircraft will scare people and that "first" crash will scare them all away. But im afraid that that first crash will nevercome and that people will slowly start to trust the pilotless aircraft. I just hope the union ETC. comes in and stopes it before anything like that happens.
-Max
Chdmcmanus From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 374 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 838 times:
A wise old engineer instructor once told me that in the future, the flight crew would consist of a pilot and a dog, the pilot is there to feed the dog, and the dog is there to bite the pilot if they touch anything!!
242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 835 times:
I really don't think that anyone in their teens that aspires to fly for the airlines has anything to worry about. A fully automated pilotless airliner is at least 30 to 40 years away IMHO. Even if a system to convert existing airliners popped up tomorrow, it'd be ten years of testing before it was implimented.
The writing is on the wall, though. Don't kid yourself in to thinking passengers will never accept a pilotless aircraft. If the fare is low enough, and the goverment says it's safe, people WILL get on it. Hang around any major airport long enough and you'll inevitably come across those passengers with "get-there-itis". These people don't care what the weather is doing, all they know is that they must get to their destination. If there's any battle to be fought, it'll take place in the courtroom, not the ticket counters.
Thoroughout aviation history, pioneers were repeatedly told what they were doing was impossable or would "never happen".
The Wright brothers were told that their flying machine would never leave the ground.
Test pilots told Bell aircraft that the sound barrier could not be broken.
It was predicted that passengers would never fly on a jet aircraft because the means of propulsion was not easily understandable.
Twin engine aircraft were said to be unsafe for trans oceanic flight.
I don't recall seeing seats for the radio operator, navagator or flight engineer on any new airliners, is the first officer's seat next?
Aria From Iran, joined Oct 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 810 times:
Sorry DG_pilot..I was having a laugh at myself, not you, about the age thing..
Guess we could go on forever about aviation philosohy, but I think some very good points have been made by the other contributers....& I don't suppose pilots will have much say in future technological/commercial developments....let's just hope it's a long way off..
thanks for the discussion
DG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 752 times:
Sorry, I've been gone for a couple days and haven't had the opportunity to check the forum.
Yes, Aria, thanks for the discussion!
Also, I thought I would make sure everyone knew that even though I am primarly talking about aviation in this thread, that I am also concerned about other professions and their dealings with automation as well.
Where will it stop? I'm looking at a train right now that is going by, and I'm thinking about the engineers that are responsible for that train. They are some of the most happy people I know. They love their job. A lot of people love their jobs. In my opinion, the only real advantage to automation is someone's bottom line. It 'may' cost less. The safety factor is marginal; and how safe do we really need aircraft and other machines, like trains. Look at the records, it is so extremely unlikely that you will ever be involved in even a minor aircraft accident, it is amazing. Why destroy something so special to many people?
So to sum it up, I think pilotless aircraft will only destroy a rich moral perspective, take peoples' jobs and forever destroy a livelyhood, and further make the 'dollar' king of absolutely everything.
Well, I suppose I better go and conserve some typing muscles for later.
242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (11 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 740 times:
The dollar already is king of everything. Why pay a flight crew millions of dollars over the span of their careers when a series of computers can do the same job without complaint for a fraction of the cost?
As our airways become more and more congested, the use of autopilots will become mandatory in most phases of flight to provide for proper spacing. The airways may be so packed in the near future, an altitude deviation of 500 feet may cause a major accident between several aircraft.
DG Pilot, I don't think your flying career is at risk, but your kids career is questionable, and I'll bet you'll be telling your grandkids about the old fashioned days when two or more people actually had to manipulate the controlls on the flight deck to fly the aircraft.
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5810 posts, RR: 56 Reply 21, posted (11 years 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 716 times:
Dear DG_Pilot,
Don't worry for your job as pilot.
We are talking about two entirely different animals here. An unmanned combat aircraft and automatic airliners. They have hardly anything in common.
Man has always strived to minimize war casualties. And any act of war is a well planned thing which has either to be carried out according to plan, or it fails, and then you try again.
For airliners it is entirely different thing s which count: Safety, passenger pleasing, and economy.
To fly an airliner is a lot more than controlling the plane according to a predefined plan. Air traffic control is a very complicated thing which cannot be automated the same way. Automation, if possible, will be so costly that economics prohibit it.
Who would like to be a passenger on an automated plane? When they have the choise (and passengers will have the choise since the customer is the one who pays the bills) then very few will accept that option.
An airliner cannot fail, and then just try again - because then the passengers will be dead.
But if your dream is in year 2020 to be in the very high risk seat of an F-15E Strike Eagle for knocking down a heavily defended enemy bridge or radar site, or your think that you can sneak in in an F-117 Nighthawk steath fighter, then you may learn that you were born too late.
Don't worry. In your lifetime the demand for pilots will only grow and grow and grow. When you retire as B797 captain in 2040-2045, then there will be 3-4-5 times more pilots than today. And many of the planes, which are being built today, will still fly every day.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Aria From Iran, joined Oct 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (11 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 710 times:
Hi DG_pilot
Yikes! this discussion just doen't seem to want to go away...you must have struck a nerve somewhere!
And, here I am, breaking my Rule No. 1....but I have to say "thank you" to Preben...who is far wiser than I am (obviously), he has summed it all up very well..I, also, have been away (again) for a few days, and was grateful and thrilled to see the responses appear...so, can I ask, are we agreed that "remote-control, pilotless aircraft" are OK for the military, but will take a month of Sundays for them to be accepted in civil aviation?..Yes, I agree there is a moral problem for the military doing it this way (or did you mean morale?), &, yes, there was that very interesting question about whether human pilots-in-the-aircraft are better than remote control...I hardly dare express my opinion on that one! (but remember, I am paid to be a pilot..). "Comm/Tech" wins in the end (whether we like it or not)...I am lucky enough to work for a company that still values "hands-on ability" along with "automation ability", and doesen't automatically go into seizure if you disconnect the autopilot...but I could tell you some stories about others (which I won't)..so, for you, yes, you have a "life" in flying to look forward to....but, it will be nothing like you imagined..(I imagine)...
DG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (11 years 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 697 times:
You like flying for Qantas Aria? What is your favorite part of your job everyday?
Just wondering...
25 242: While our views on the future of civil airline pilots differ greatly, I'm still betting we'll see a reduction in flight crew by 2050. Sure, there may
26 Aria: Hi DG_pilot (I am even learning how to print your user-name without having to go back three times!) First, I love it that someone outside the company
27 Bruce: Hi Aria...nice to see a female pilot on here! do you ever fly international - like to the States? If so do you like those longer 16 hr runs as opposed
28 Aria: Hi Bruce....I sent an answer to your email Aria
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