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Official Story Of Northwest BAC-146 N528Xj  
User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11919 times:

Anyone know the official story about what happened with this aircraft? It was a maintenance taxi that went bad in Memphis in 2002. Some guy has a website up that says the techs were recorded by the CVR as saying the were going to try and get the nosewheel off the ground and put the aircraft into some kind of takeoff mode inadvertently

I can't find any NTSb report about this incident.

A/C reg was N528XJ.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11962 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR




Every mention I can find refers to an apparent brake failure. Here are some pics:
























2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11893 times:
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Man, there's only one word to describe that : "ouch"

Was that WO, or was that aircraft repaired?

(and I hope nobody was hurt, that had to have been some collision!)

- litz


User currently offlineCdfMxTech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11888 times:

The aircraft was written off.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (8 years 11 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11884 times:

Looking at the Pics,Def a Write off.
Interesting to know the story.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (8 years 11 months 21 hours ago) and read 11870 times:

First, to ba accurate... It was not Northwest, but Mesaba... and it was not an BAe-146, but an Avro Avro RJ85.

Mechanics were performing a maintenance check on a run-up pad and were rushing to bring the plane back to the gate for its scheduled departure and taxing at a high rate of speed. They either shut down or never had running the engine that drove the hydraulic pumps and when they approached the gate had no brakes and impacted the jetway.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17118 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (8 years 11 months 18 hours ago) and read 11825 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
not an BAe-146, but an Avro Avro RJ85.

There is a difference, but it's pretty slight. Smaller than between a 734 and a 738...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 11 months 18 hours ago) and read 11814 times:

that sucks... what ever happenned to the persons involved? are they still with the company?


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 11 months 17 hours ago) and read 11777 times:

Boy, every time I see one of these, I feel sorry for the folks involved. Every time I'm tempted to bypass a checklist to get the a/c back in service or to the gate, these pics remind me of the importance of following procedures. As techs, we're all just as susceptible to this type of thing if we don't keep our heads up.

User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 11 months 14 hours ago) and read 11719 times:
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Checklists are ohhhh so important ... reminds me of a train accident an engineer I know was involved in ...

They were in a rush to get going, so they bypassed the usual "walk the train" air test, electing instead to trust that things were already properly connected (train was already built). It was a small train, 3 cars, 1 engine, delivering to a local steel mill.

First hill they got to, things started getting a little fast and brake applications were noneffective so they hit the emergency brake. No help.

Turned out, the pipeline was closed off @ the engine (cars were connected, brake line was not), so there was no brake.

Whole thing ended up running clear through the steel plant (runthru track), and came to a stop on the other side on an uphill.

Cause of accident? Rushing things, not following a checklist, and therefore, not following proper procedures.

- litz


User currently offlineMeister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 11 months 13 hours ago) and read 11692 times:

Quoting Cdfmxtech (Thread starter):
I can't find any NTSb report about this incident.

There wouldn't be one, because the airplane wasn't being operated for the purpose of flight.

-Meister



Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (8 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 11634 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
There is a difference, but it's pretty slight. Smaller than between a 734 and a 738...

It's a lot more different then you'd think...different engines, different avionics, different systems..... it's more like a DC-9 and a Boeing 717.

I also heard the person in the pilots seat bailed out just before impact. Had he not, he would have been killed as the windshield and structure were pushed back to just inches from the bulkhead. I heard the whole break down of the event once...speeds, communication.. etc

[Edited 2006-01-03 23:02:15]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17118 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (8 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 11585 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
It's a lot more different then you'd think...different engines, different avionics, different systems..... it's more like a DC-9 and a Boeing 717.

Point taken, but you could say most of those about 734->738  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 11552 times:

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 10):

Yeah, someone at work emailed me a Powerpoint of those pics about a month ago. It had a bunch of crap in it about remaining seated until the plane stops, etc, so I did my own research via internet. I never found anything concrete except that the aircraft was indeed written off, that mx was taxiing the plane without pax, & that Mesabe was allowed to conduct an intrnal investigation. I was sort of surprised by that, as I've seen accident reports on some pretty minor things compared to this.



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineCdfMxTech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (8 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 11494 times:

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 10):
There wouldn't be one, because the airplane wasn't being operated for the purpose of flight.

-Meister

Wasn't aware that this mattered. That explains it then. Thank you.


User currently offlineStarline From Germany, joined Nov 2005, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11421 times:

>They either shut down or never had running the engine that drove the >hydraulic pumps and when they approached the gate had no brakes and >impacted the jetway

At the RJ, there's a brake accumulator that stores energy for braking without hydraulic power connected. So it doesn't explain, why the plane didn't come to a stop before the jetway. At least they must have had running the AC hydraulic pump before or while taxiing


User currently offlineLearpilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 814 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11397 times:

Does anyone know if there was another incident involving a Mesaba Avro in Oklahoma City about a month ago? I flew through there and there appeared to be one pushed away from the terminal at the edge of the ramp with what looked to be a large hole in the fuselage underneath the copilot's window. Looked like a baggage cart may have gotten away from one of the rampies, or something.


Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11203 times:

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 13):
Mesabe was allowed to conduct an intrnal investigation.

Amazing! Especially since the NTSB investigated John Denver's crash when it was obvious that there was NO public safety issue whatever involved in it. They investigate crashes at the Reno Air Races I suspect because they like being in Reno on the taxpayer's dime. What kind of "transportation" issue is there in a single-seat race plane?

* * *


I recall a similar event in December 1987. This plane:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


was being taxiied by mechanics from terminal one at LAX down to a hangar on the west end of the northside taxiways. Apparently it reached a fairly high speed for taxiing and they lost control. It appears that the plane spun around and slid backwards into a TWA L-1011 damaging the wing of the Lockheed and the tail of the 146. It emerged from the repairs with this hybrid, experimental paint scheme:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin


Didn't make much of a news splash however, as PS1771 went down a few days later.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineErj-145mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 306 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10936 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
Amazing! Especially since the NTSB investigated John Denver's crash when it was obvious that there was NO public safety issue whatever involved in it. They investigate crashes at the Reno Air Races I suspect because they like being in Reno on the taxpayer's dime. What kind of "transportation" issue is there in a single-seat race plane?

The NTSB is tasked with invesigating aircraft accidents. If the aircraft is not in the process of flight, then it is an incident. Flight means that the aircraft has moved under its own power for the intention of flight. If there is no pilot on board, then of course flight is not intentionable. The John Denver thing and the Reno things are flight accidents. Its in NTSB 830.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10933 times:

Quoting Starline (Reply 15):
At the RJ, there's a brake accumulator that stores energy for braking without hydraulic power connected. So it doesn't explain, why the plane didn't come to a stop before the jetway. At least they must have had running the AC hydraulic pump before or while taxiing

They had used up what little charge they had in the Emergancy Accumulator through routine taxing and during the engine runs, and were not running the engine that drives the AC Hyd. Pumps.. When they returned to the gate they had nothing left to stop... the high rate of taxi speed didn't help.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10871 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
but an Avro Avro RJ85.

Not correct. It would be a British Aerospace Avro RJ85.

Avro hadn't been a company for many years before this plane was even conceived.

N


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10849 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 19):
and were not running the engine that drives the AC Hyd. Pumps

I wasn't aware that engines drive AC hydraulic pumps, which are of course electrically driven.  Wink

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10834 times:

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 21):
wasn't aware that engines drive AC hydraulic pumps, which are of course electrically driven

The AC Generator that runs the hydraulic pumps is driven off the engines... It's been almost 10 years since I worked the Avro RJ 70, but I want to say it's off the #3 engine.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10830 times:

Engine # 1 - IDG # 1
Engine # 2 - Yellow System Hydr. Pump
Engine # 3 - Green System Hydr. Pump
Engine # 4 - IDG # 2



This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10804 times:

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 23):
Engine # 2 - Yellow System Hydr. Pump
Engine # 3 - Green System Hydr. Pump

...?? and what systems does each drive...??



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 Troubleshooter : Yellow System: One engine driven pump, one A/C pump and one D/C pump (brake accu px only!!!) - flaps - lift spoilers - roll spoilers - rudder - aux fu
26 Dl757md : I'm not familiar with the airplane so can someone explain to me this. Can the AC hydraulic pumps be powered from either IDG? Does the aircraft also h
27 Troubleshooter : Yes, the AC pump can be operated if the AC busses are powered. Normally a minimum of one generator (IDG or APU generator) is sufficient for that.
28 Continental : What is the difference? I always wanted to know that. Is it just a few extra rows extended or something?
29 EMBQA : The big ones are upgraded, more powerful engines....upgraded cockpit from analog to glass. Most of the rest of the changes are suttle.
30 Airgypsy : I was pushed back from the gate in a BAe-146 and had the opportunity to experience the ease in which hydraulics can be left "off". Dropped the tow bar
31 LY744 : The main difference is that they are members of different generations of the 737, introduced about a decade apart. The 800 was indeed made a bit larg
32 Viscount724 : I disagree. The 737NG has many external differences from earlier 737s including a wing almost 20% larger with 18 ft. greater span, a vertical tail ab
33 Stratosphere : Both MX were fired by Mesaba after the incident. However, I do know the guy that was driving and lets say he has a much better job than he had at Mes
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