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Human Factors Requests  
User currently offlineAirfly From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 322 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1396 times:

Hello there,

As I read and search, Human factors are very important in aviation! The responsibility is fundamental as transporting passengers. But one thing that hits me is if pilots do not comply with those normal requests such as; sleep, resting before flight, no alcohol and many others. Are there any occurrence's where pilots did not comply with those requests? Of course if you own an aircraft e.g PA-28 the possibilities of flying with less regulations is higher, but what about commercial flying?

Cheers
Lucca M.


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15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1374 times:

Quoting Airfly (Thread starter):
Are there any occurrence's where pilots did not comply with those requests?

There was the rather well publicized case when Channel 4 (IIRC) did an expose on the all-drinking, no-sleeping BA pilots. Including the Captain who slept the entire flite.

Note: Not bashing all BA pilots, just the moronic ones.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1352 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Channel 4 (IIRC) did an expose

Remember, they beef up the facts on these documentaries to make them interesting. I would take whatever was said with a pinch of salt.

Quoting Airfly (Thread starter):
But one thing that hits me is if pilots do not comply with those normal requests such as; sleep, resting before flight, no alcohol and many others. Are there any occurrence's where pilots did not comply with those requests?

Its not just pilots affected by this. Engineers are as well. Infact, Human Factors is one of the courses that is MANDATORY for all engineers to take every 12 months. (along with Aviation Legislation).



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 2):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Channel 4 (IIRC) did an expose

Remember, they beef up the facts on these documentaries to make them interesting. I would take whatever was said with a pinch of salt.

Of course. But some pilots were fired IIRC.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1340 times:

BA (to my mind) in the last two years have suspended a few pilots relating to being on duty whilst under the influence of alcohol. Now, CRM states that by LAW they are to be completely T-Total. I doubt the pilots were so drunk that they were unnable to carry out their duty, however i think it is more likely they were caught out in the after-affects of drinking down route...


Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1308 times:

A good read would be James Reason. He has done lots of work on Human Factors in Aviation and is quoted a lot in other presentations.

User currently offlineWhiskeyflyer From Ireland, joined May 2002, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

currently revamping our Human factors training for our engineers (even if I see your thread start leans towards pilots) and it includes everything from correct tools for the job, shift changes etc and should be done together with health and safety issues I believe (on the issue of being drunk on the job, then you get into labour law issues as well.... lawyers get involved, how many companies do you know with a calibrated breathalizer with a person trained in its use and then there is drug testing..... civil rights issues have to be taken into account)

We cover the flight crew issues under CRM training

Good sites for maintenance/engineering human factors issues are:

UK CAA
Good overview doc
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...pplicationid=11&mode=detail&id=287

FAA (lot of reading here)
http://hfskyway.faa.gov/


User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

Like in any field, pilots are people and people have personal problems. And unfortunately, some try to compensate those problems with alcohol. Even though I do feel that it's quite rare for pilots to show up at work intoxicated, it is impossible to rule out any such occurrences.

Nowadays, CRM (Cockpit Resource Management) is a major thing and training is mandatory. We have come a long way since a few decades ago. The KLM/Pan Am disaster in Tenerife was one of the major catalysts to drive CRM research and training.

The CRM human factors go WAY beyond how much sleep you got or if you had a beer the night before. It's about human interaction, the way your mind works, decision making processes, emergency management and much more.

Human interaction is extremely important because it's a major safeguard and the reason why there's (at least) two of us in the cockpit. If you have a communications block, which can occur due to age difference, attitude problems (arrogance, lack of assertiveness etc), language barriers, past history or disagreements, stress and more, you have a deteriorated state of communication in the cockpit, which is a bad thing.

Here's an example: Say you're driving somewhere you've never been and the person sitting next to you is reading the map. The map reader says you should go right, but you decide to go left anyway. The map reader is now frustrated and the next time he sees you taking a wrong turn, he keeps his mouth shut, just to see you make a fool of yourself. This is basic human behavior and in an aircraft, can be a setup for a problem, as you can imagine.

So one of the key points in CRM is to first recognize that such a block is present and then learning and using techniques to break out of those blocks. Very much psychology!

Ah I could go on and on but I see we're out of time for today!  Smile


Grbld


User currently offlineJspitfire From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 308 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 5):
A good read would be James Reason



Quoting Grbld (Reply 7):
The KLM/Pan Am disaster in Tenerife was one of the major catalysts to drive CRM research and training.

I have studied Reason's model and the Tenerife disaster in detail in my Human Factors courses. I must say, the course is extremely boring, but I have taken a lot from it. We are just starting to train in the simulator in a 2-crew environment, and I can see now how a lot of the stuff I have learned applies in there. It's quite a change to have someone else helping you, doing the radio calls, and all that when in a 172, I have to do it all on my own.

Jason


User currently offlineAirfly From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1229 times:

Great Comments I see.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 7):
Here's an example: Say you're driving somewhere you've never been and the person sitting next to you is reading the map. The map reader says you should go right, but you decide to go left anyway. The map reader is now frustrated and the next time he sees you taking a wrong turn, he keeps his mouth shut, just to see you make a fool of yourself. This is basic human behavior and in an aircraft, can be a setup for a problem, as you can imagine.

Is fascinating to see the Human side of a person operating the total inverse, So you can realize your own fault...
I read some facts from Pilot reports, where both CO and pilot were asleep for such a long period! By the way what is the maximum amount of sleep crew can have in a long haul flight?

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 4):
BA (to my mind) in the last two years have suspended a few pilots relating to being on duty whilst under the influence of alcohol

Now how can a person of So much responsibility drink before flying!? A pilot of such great knowledge to be able to fly an aircraft transporting passengers, do such as thing?
I always thought "tests" were made before flight to check the pilots behavior and reflexes... But I'm not sure.

Cheers
Lucca M.



L - I - B - E - R - A - L
User currently offlineStoicescu From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

Quoting Airfly (Reply 9):
I always thought "tests" were made before flight to check the pilots behavior and reflexes... But I'm not sure.

Actually the tests are made after the flight!


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

Quoting Airfly (Reply 9):
By the way what is the maximum amount of sleep crew can have in a long haul flight?

That depends on the flight. But there are so many factors. If they've had a short layover in another timezone, maybe they came on the plane unrested.

The CAA now permits carefully controlled catnaps in the cockpit seat on longhaul. In IMHO it is way better to have a controlled nap in cruise than being exhausted during approach.

Quoting Airfly (Reply 9):
Now how can a person of So much responsibility drink before flying!? A pilot of such great knowledge to be able to fly an aircraft transporting passengers, do such as thing?

Well, it's not exactly common, but it goes to show that despite all the screening, morons will pop up anywhere. Also I think a certain organizational and national culture may contribute to laxness. Not to generalize but some nationalities are just less likely to drink before a flight.

50 years ago, things were different. Pilots were gods and unquestioned. If a senior pilot had a beer or a glass of wine no one would say anything. CRM has changed all that but it's worth remembering that that generation of pilots only recently retired.

Quoting Airfly (Reply 9):
I always thought "tests" were made before flight to check the pilots behavior and reflexes... But I'm not sure.

The FAA conducts random breathalizer test but the first line of defense is fellow crewmembers. That was the problem at BA. Fellow crewmembers would say nothing.


The most "fun" part of the documentary was the experiment when a US 727 crew drank heavily in the evening, slept only 3-4 hours, then had to fly a sim. They missed the start of descent on one. Then they proceeded to screw up by the numbers during a simulated emergency. The pilot got annoyed at the F/Es slow responses (they were both pretty toasted) and was leaning out of his chair to point over the F/Es shoulders at stuff on the engine panel. They managed to land but all agree that they were far from top form.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAmtrosie From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1212 times:

Ah.... human factors is quickly becoming a hot issue in the U.S.

Quoting Whiskeyflyer (Reply 6):
currently revamping our Human factors training for our engineers (even if I see your thread start leans towards pilots) and it includes everything from correct tools for the job, shift changes etc and should be done together with health and safety issues I believe

I just finished a one day seminar (way too little, but the boss is cheap!) I found it extremely interesting and VERY applicable to the maintenance side of the house. I wish fatigue (night shift work) would be addressed by the various governing bodies.

My biggest impression was of being self-aware, as to your own tendencies, which could pre-dispose you to certain mistakes. The inter-personal issues was very interesting. It is my opinion that this area would benefit everyone !!


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 12):
I wish fatigue (night shift work) would be addressed by the various governing bodies.

The cynic in me says wait for the first accident "caused" by a tired maintenance tech. Blech...

Quoting Amtrosie (Reply 12):

My biggest impression was of being self-aware, as to your own tendencies, which could pre-dispose you to certain mistakes. The inter-personal issues was very interesting. It is my opinion that this area would benefit everyone !!

As you say it would be good for anyone. I am technical sales, so I do a lot of face time with customers, in large part as support for salespersons. My boss is VERY good at human factors stuff and we have long chats about working with different people, motivation, and so forth. Being self-aware is good, having a boss who makes you self aware is stellar.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31580 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1197 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 2):
Its not just pilots affected by this. Engineers are as well. Infact, Human Factors is one of the courses that is MANDATORY for all engineers to take every 12 months. (along with Aviation Legislation).

A Good site with Articles on Human Factors for Mx Personnell.
greyowl.com
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAmtrosie From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1162 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
A Good site with Articles on Human Factors for Mx Personnell.
greyowl.com

They gave the seminar. WELL WORTH THE TIME!!!!


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