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Problem In The Cockpit - What Would You Do?  
User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

For pilots, would be pilots and anyone else here is the problem:

You are approaching the airport in a large airliner. At the final stage of flap deployment, your flaps go to 30 degrees and this is acknowledged by the instruments. As they reach 30 degrees the aircraft starts to roll to the right with no input from yourself. The aircraft is on autopilot, but it disengages as it cannot maintain a level flight.

What would you do next?

The reason for this will become clear soon!

J

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1559 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5315 times:

The one of the first things I learned when I started flying was when you do something and the airplane starts acting funny,"undo" whatever you did.

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
What would you do next?

Fly the airplane.Take the airplane under control,establish a safe flight path,discontinue the approach if necessary.Once the airplane safely under control start dealing with the problem and compleate the necessary checklist items,prepare for the approach and brief it,call Chief F/A brief her/him.

Land safely,compleate the paperworks go have a beer ....  Smile



Widen your world
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5306 times:

Pull the ejector handle......

User currently offlineHT1000 From French Polynesia, joined Jun 2005, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 1):
The one of the first things I learned when I started flying was when you do something and the airplane starts acting funny,"undo" whatever you did.

Not necessarily true in case of asymmetric flap extension . Retracting the flaps to the previous position could increase the asymmetry and things could get worse ...



Few Were Born With It. Even Fewer Know What To Do With It.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5290 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting HT1000 (Reply 3):
Not necessarily true in case of asymmetric flap extension



Well of course there is no universial asymmetric flap procedure, but the procedure Wing desribed applies to more than a few aircraft types.




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5285 times:

And there is the asymetric brake (slat for sure, not sure about flaps?) Some 4 letter abbreviation which I can never remember (ASSD?), so that should stop it before it gets too bad.

User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

leave what ive done alone abandon approach pull up the gear retract flaps one stage, if it helps go around for another go if it gets worse put them down to 30 trim as much as i can for left rudder and half left airleron.
then turn the way the aircraft is banking most and fly away from the airport and away from all towns.
check the manuals to see if anything can be done. if yes do it and if gives negaative effect undo it.
Declare emergency and try a landing.

that might not be the best solution but im tired and not thinking straight

rgds --james--



You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
The reason for this will become clear soon!

If you saying asymmetrical flaps it won't happen. Aircraft has sensors that match the RH to LH set of flaps and if they are not in complete agreement, the flaps won't move. I think it reads to less then 1 deg of split...!!



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

Once the flaps are locked out due to assymetry, they can be neither extended nor retracted untill landing. The amount by which they are allowed to be assymetrical is minimal and is less than one degree, even one degree of assymetry could cause a catastropic failure...


Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlinePositiveClimb From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5250 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 5):
And there is the asymetric brake (slat for sure, not sure about flaps?) Some 4 letter abbreviation which I can never remember (ASSD?), so that should stop it before it gets too bad.

As far as I know it is a three letter abbreviation (at least in Airbus' terminology): WTB - Wing tip brake. This brake locks the whole driving shaft for the flaps as soon as an asymmetrie between both sides is detected.
If I remember correctly, Kaddyuk is right, in case the WTB is locked the flaps can't be extended/retracted anymore.

Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin



Proud Airbus employee
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 9):

Yes, they are called that, but I think it's the system (or the end box) that has got the 4 letter abbreviation. It's going to bug me now until I can check it on Monday!!
I should remember but I just can't! And I've even worked on the darn things!
I should keep my Aircraft Familirization course notes at home and not at work, as it'll be in there! Butmy excuse is that it's getting too late here Big grin


User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

That is why when aircraft experience a flap assymetry, they must return to either the airport of departure or a suitable alternate because the flaps are unable to move at all... Its a safety feature, if there is a problem with the flaps you wont want to move them at all!


Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1559 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting HT1000 (Reply 3):
Not necessarily true in case of asymmetric flap extension . Retracting the flaps to the previous position could increase the asymmetry and things could get worse ...

This is not an assimetry flap situation.The thread says "

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
your flaps go to 30 degrees and this is acknowledged by the instruments.

So from this sentence I understand flaps deployed to position 30 normally.If there has been an assimetry position the flap indicator needles should be positioned apart from each other and stop moving,not indicating flap 30 normally.



Widen your world
User currently offlinePositiveClimb From Germany, joined Jun 2004, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5203 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 10):
Yes, they are called that, but I think it's the system (or the end box) that has got the 4 letter abbreviation. It's going to bug me now until I can check it on Monday!!

So, let me try to save your weekend....

Another abbreviation for the whole asymmetry-detection unit I remember having heard is APPU - Asymmetry Position Pick-Off Unit

Maybe this was the one you had in mind?

If not... Keep thinking  Wink  thumbsup 


Best regards,
Fabian/PositiveClimb Big grin



Proud Airbus employee
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5202 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
If you saying asymmetrical flaps it won't happen. Aircraft has sensors that match the RH to LH set of flaps and if they are not in complete agreement, the flaps won't move. I think it reads to less then 1 deg of split...!!

Depends on the airplane, so, um, no.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 8):
Once the flaps are locked out due to assymetry, they can be neither extended nor retracted untill landing

Again, depends on the airplane. BZZZZ!

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 8):
even one degree of assymetry could cause a catastropic failure...

Not so much.

Answer to the original question:

BUST OUT THE QRH.

[Edited 2006-01-06 23:51:44]


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):
Depends on the airplane, so, um, no.

Umm... Isn't it a requirement of Part 121 aircraft...???



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5163 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):

Depends on the airplane, so, um, no.



Thanks, Ralgha. It's amazing that more people don't discuss aircraft systems/procedures issues with this in mind!




2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5113 times:

Depends on the a/c. I've always been taught to "return to the last STABLE config. and then run the FLAP DISAG (a/c specific) chklist.

User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5093 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 12):
So from this sentence I understand flaps deployed to position 30 normally.If there has been an assimetry position the flap indicator needles should be positioned apart from each other and stop moving,not indicating flap 30 normally.

What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts? Wouldn't the indicators match readings? The side of the plane with good flaps would produce lift and the side with missing flaps would produce less lift.


User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5065 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):
Again, depends on the airplane. BZZZZ!

Thanks for the attitude... like i didnt already understand that point... I'm talking about modern jet aircraft (A320/A330/A340/747) etc etc

If I were to list all the possible events, it would take all day to cover them...

 banghead 



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17002 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5048 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 18):
What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts? Wouldn't the indicators match readings? The side of the plane with good flaps would produce lift and the side with missing flaps would produce less lift.

This is somewhat similar to what happened to the DC-10 at Chicago. The slats on the damaged wing retracted but the pilots were unaware of the fact.

I think since then further redundancies have been built into the sensor systems.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1559 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5022 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 18):
What if a section of the flaps broke free from the mounts? Wouldn't the indicators match readings? The side of the plane with good flaps would produce lift and the side with missing flaps would produce less lift.

But it still not be named "flap assimetry". That specicific definition describes the uneven flap position of the 2 sides of the wing with a selected flap configuration.

You extend your flaps normally and some part of it seperated or damaged after that,its another story.



Widen your world
User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
...the aircraft starts to roll to the right with no input from yourself. The aircraft is on autopilot, but it disengages as it cannot maintain a level flight.

This is not one of those Twilight Zone things where there's a monster on your left wing, is it?


User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

Quoting PositiveClimb (Reply 13):

APPU!! That's the one! Knew it started with and "A" Big grin
Should have remembered, as it's happened a few times that people thought that I'm responsible for it, when I'm not!
Welcome to my RU list.


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 15):
Umm... Isn't it a requirement of Part 121 aircraft...???

No such regulation exists in part 25, 121, or 125.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
25 CosmicCruiser : We had an Airbus that had an actuator fail (I believe) and the flap came up on one side while on app to ldg. They flew the jet about 150nm to a bette
26 777236ER : You're talking about the G-CPER incident? Smoke in the cockpit, resulting in an emergency landing at Heathrow, with control difficulties? The MX guys
27 Post contains images Julesmusician : oh you have to go spoil it in fact what i was trying to ascertain if there was a standard process for pilots that you would all do the same thing if t
28 Ilikeyyc : What type of aircraft was G-CPER?
29 Post contains links A319XFW : A Boeing 757-236: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/3_2005_g_cper.cfm
30 Ilikeyyc : Thank you very much for the link. This story is very interesting to me because I work in a heavy maintenance shop, although for the CRJ 200. I learned
31 Zeke : One does not stuff around with smoke or fire present, esp after swiss air. If you had mentioned smoke or fire in your original post, you would have h
32 Post contains links and images HAWK21M : View Large View MediumPhoto © José Jorge regds MEL
33 AeroVodochody : aileron and rudder trim?
34 XXXX10 : At flaps 30 you would be close to landing (about 5 miles?) if you could maintain wings level by control wheel imputs would it be safer to continue the
35 Post contains images AirWillie6475 : Uhh..... bank the airplane to the desired heading. If the flaps are confirmed down 30 degrees then why is everyone worrying about the flaps, can instr
36 MDorBust : Yes. Cross check, cross check, cross check, or die. Increase planed approach speed to compensate[Edited 2006-01-13 05:05:37][Edited 2006-01-13 05:06:
37 Post contains images Troubleshooter : What about too much internal leakage in one (or more) spoiler actuator? I have heard about some events on the B737NG. The aircraft starts to roll with
38 CosmicCruiser : I've had a leaking spoiler actuator on the 727 years ago but it only "floats" which means the air flow will pull it up only enough to give you a slig
39 HAWK21M : Is there a down position mechanical lock.What about Hydraulic loss. regds MEL
40 Post contains images Usnseallt82 : Full power, run to the galley, slurp up as much vodka as possible, punch the unruly passenger, grab the hot flight attendent and then.... All in a day
41 SlamClick : Well, it's been a week. Rather too late for "soon" so how about eventually?
42 CX flyboy : I seem to recall a Dragonair A320 landing at Kai Tak with flap problems - possibly assymetry, I can't remember. After severe control difficulties and
43 HAWK21M : Anyone having those Pics/Links. regds MEL
44 B-HOP : CX Flyboy: - The HKCAD did indeed publish an accident report and is available on the top floor on the HK Central Libary, don't know where it disappear
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