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Boeing 737/747 Sequence Of Pre Landing Events  
User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4730 times:

Morning all,

Having been playing flight sim for a while I am getting myself into a total confusion.... If you are landing at an airport and air traffic control say "make straight in 27R or whatever" how would you set the approach? I see two ways - either you can get the autopilot to fly a GPS approach and then let it take you to the ILS or you can fly a NAV approach, but this is where I am getting into a mix:

The sequence I usually use is :

(1) set the autopilot to a height and then let the GPS setting of the autopilot take me to the ILS. However if I arm the APP switch mode for the autopilot and the height hold is set on the autopilot it won't switch off the hold part and although it follows the directional course it sticks to the same height and will not descend down the ILS.

is this how it is done in real life or should I be using the NAV function of the autopilot before i even get to the ILS?

AND the second question is - if flying down the ILS once the APP side of the autopilot is working and not doing an autolanding what would be the usual height of switching off the autopilot and finishing the landing?

Thanks  Smile

J

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
If you are landing at an airport and air traffic control say "make straight in 27R or whatever"

Wouldn't ATC have given you a vector to the ILS before that? My understanding of "make straight in" is that I'd stay on the heading they'd given me until I'd captured the localiser and then I'd be free to turn on to it. I'd be interested to see what the real flyers say.


User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

i think flight sim is very rare as of course most airports will vector you right up to the ILS, but in flight sim you can be a long way off and the voice just says "make straight in"....

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 2):
in flight sim you can be a long way off and the voice just says "make straight in"....

OK, I haven't experienced that.  Smile


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4688 times:

Silly game.

You are flying IFR category flights under VFR flight rules.

"Straight in" means that your approach is cleared without performing a standard pattern (Downwind, Base, Final). Just go for the final.

You shouldn't be getting a vector to the ILS since you shouldn't be useing an ILS approach.

I believe that most current version of MSFS will give you vectors all the way onto the ILS IF you are actually flying an IFR flight plan.


User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4680 times:

Not to debate the merits of FS, but it's not that silly if you think about it. If someone had the desire and capabilities to fly around in a 737 under VFR, they could, and they might even get cleared to make straight in to a runway. Obviously, most people are going to want to be in Class A airspace with a jet, so they'll be on an IFR flight plan, and while they might get cleared for a visual approach, that can't happen until the runway is in sight, so they'll probably get vectored around a little -- which can also happen in FS, at least, version 2002. They speak a little slowly and formally, but it's got a hint of realism.

Whether you're in a simulator or the real world, "make straight in" would imply a visual approach, since an instrument approach would begin at the culmination of a STAR or ATC vectors to the localizer. You wouldn't be using a localizer for a visual approach. (Of course, you could, but it's not part of the visual approach.)

If you set up an IFR flight plan in FS, you won't get told to "make straight in" unless you choose the visual approach once you are close to the field.

You're the chief pilot of your own airline in FS, so you can choose when to turn off the autopilot. It's much more challenging (fun) to hand-fly it though. If you can actually fly it well, go back and add IMC and crosswinds.



Position and hold
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4642 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 5):
If you set up an IFR flight plan in FS, you won't get told to "make straight in" unless you choose the visual approach once you are close to the field.

I can see where the confusion lies. I wasn't thinking specifically about VFR since I get the "make straight in" when I'm IFR in FS. Maybe a discrepancy in FS then? I certainly don't hear that instruction very often on my scanner but I'm in the UK. Come to think of it, it's more common to hear an aircraft vectored to the ILS with the addition of "close the localiser from the left/right, report established" so I guess the clearance to join the ILS is implicit. That instruction doesn't seem to be used in FS - maybe it's a non-US thing?

[Edited 2006-01-11 01:08:19]

[Edited 2006-01-11 01:15:39]

User currently offlineDColeMAN From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 274 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
I believe that most current version of MSFS will give you vectors all the way onto the ILS IF you are actually flying an IFR flight plan.

Correct.

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
(1) set the autopilot to a height and then let the GPS setting of the autopilot take me to the ILS. However if I arm the APP switch mode for the autopilot and the height hold is set on the autopilot it won't switch off the hold part and although it follows the directional course it sticks to the same height and will not descend down the ILS.

You need to be just below the height at which you start to descend down the glideslope, shortly before establishing it. This is usually no higher than 2500ft (2000ft to be safe). It will start descend down it if you follow this method correctly, honest Smile

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
AND the second question is - if flying down the ILS once the APP side of the autopilot is working and not doing an autolanding what would be the usual height of switching off the autopilot and finishing the landing?

I take it you mean when landing in poor visibility? If so, I believe you are able to disconnect the A/P once you have the airport/approach lights in sight.

Dale



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User currently offlineDColeMAN From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 274 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 6):
so I guess the clearance to join the ILS is implicit. That instruction doesn't seem to be used in FS - maybe it's a non-US thing?

No, the ATC in FS is just $hite Wink



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User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Thread starter):
(1) set the autopilot to a height and then let the GPS setting of the autopilot take me to the ILS. However if I arm the APP switch mode for the autopilot and the height hold is set on the autopilot it won't switch off the hold part and although it follows the directional course it sticks to the same height and will not descend down the ILS.

Are you using an FS aircraft with a "GPS/NAV" switch? If so, I think this may be more of an FS (i.e. Hobby Discussions) thing.


User currently offlineAmericanAirFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 408 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4620 times:

As far as ATC goes try hopping online with VATSIM. I don't know much about real world flying but I know that FS can't compare completely. Also why use the GPS? Just set the HDG switch and once you're about to cross the localizer disengage the HDG switch and engage the APP switch for ILS.


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User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Julesmusician: Which aircraft are you flying in FS?

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 11):
Julesmusician: Which aircraft are you flying in FS?

By that I mean are you using the default FS 737 and 747 or add-ons?

The default 737 and 747 don't have proper Flight Management Systems, just GPS and radio navigation, and they're mutually exclusive. You need to use GPS or Heading mode to get yourself to the localiser. When you pick up the localiser, you need to make sure your GPS/NAV switch is set to NAV and use LOC and APP modes as appropriate. In reality, the later Boeings certainly don't have an FS-style GPS/NAV switch and I'm pretty sure the older ones don't, either.

For how it's done in the real world, see the earlier discussion, Approach Mode On Autopilot - Questions (by Julesmusician Nov 2 2005 in Tech Ops) and assume you're in HDG or LNAV mode prior to interception.

I still suspect this is more of an FS question. As suggested before, you really should take a look at the PMDG 737NG and 744 offerings. They're far closer to the real thing and you have the hydraulic, pneumatic and electrical systems, as well as the full FMS with FMC. I can't bear the default aircraft since I got my hands on those.  Smile


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17055 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

There are many servers online which allow FS to be played with ATC handled by other players. This should give a more realistic experience.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Shouldn't this be in a different forum? Certainly not here!!!

User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4479 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
Shouldn't this be in a different forum? Certainly not here!!!

I struggled with that, too, but the original poster appears to want to use your knowledge to simluate flight as realistically as possible. You should be flattered  Smile I know it's much more fun to fly the Class D full-motion simluators with a type-rated pilot or instructor than just a few friends for the same reason.



Position and hold
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
Shouldn't this be in a different forum? Certainly not here!!!

My thoughts, too. I think the problem centres around a switch which appears in FS but not in real 737s and 747s.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 15):
I struggled with that, too, but the original poster appears to want to use your knowledge to simluate flight as realistically as possible

First of all, I don't even have FS, do I can't even begin to talk about how to use "real" procedures to fly FS.

Secondly, the entire scenario is really tough to follow. If you're cleared a "straight in" that's a visual approach. You turn the flight directors off and fly the aircraft. I don't care if it's a 744 or a J-3, it all works the same.

For an ILS, in the real aircraft there is no "GPS setting". If you have the autopilot in CMD and arm the approach, when you intercept the GS it will descend down along the GS, so I again, I don't know how FS works, so I can't even begin to discuss it.

That's why this thread belongs in another forum!


User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

I see what you mean. I was interpreting "fly a GPS approach" the wrong way. I thought the poster was referring to a published approach procedure using GPS. I see now it's more likely the poster entered the airport as a direct waypoint in the on-board GPS of the default FS plane and used that to navigate automatically to the airport. If that's the case, you're certainly correct in that it is highly unrealistic and would get better answers in a flight simulation forum.


Position and hold
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

... Although I did learn from this thread that a "straight in" is for a visual approach only. I guess Uncle Bill got that wrong in FS.  Smile

User currently offlineJulesmusician From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
Shouldn't this be in a different forum? Certainly not here!!!

I am not sure I agree, I am trying to find out how it is done in real life - that is the technical side of each stage to compare with how it is simulated and to compare the differences in real life and sim.

There may be total differences between FS and real life. The 737 and 747 on flight sim allow you to navigate in two ways on the autopilot. They can use a predefined route course plotted on the Garmin GPS going from waypoint to waypoint. You can then ask it to fly you on GPS an approach on any runway into an airport and it will set you right up on finals. There is no radio beacons involved until reaching ILS.

The key point here is if you are going to a quiet airport if ATC can tell you to make your own way to the ILS by your own navigation equipment or are they always going to vector you every time? It seems that if there are no other aircraft around there is no earthly reason why a pilot cannot decide how they want to approach the ILS and make there own turns etc..using their "in house" equipment.

However it appears that maybe GPS navigation to finals is never done in real life...and if you are navigating on your own to an airfield finals it is still done on radio beacons...

J


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4380 times:

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 20):
The key point here is if you are going to a quiet airport if ATC can tell you to make your own way to the ILS by your own navigation equipment or are they always going to vector you every time?

It doesn't happen like that in real life. You might be vectored to a IAF (Initial Approach Fix) and then fly the entire procedure. It could be an arc, a procedure turn, or a series of intermediate fixes to the to the course. But, most likely it will be radar vectors, since that normally provides for the most efficient arrival rate.

It's not uncommon once you see the field, especially in the US, where the controllers will ask you if you "have the field in sight" If you reply in the affirmative, then you're cleared for a "visual". If you don't want to that just reply Negative and you will receive the IFR approach clearance.

Quoting Julesmusician (Reply 20):
They can use a predefined route course plotted on the Garmin GPS going from waypoint to waypoint. You can then ask it to fly you on GPS an approach on any runway into an airport and it will set you right up on finals. There is no radio beacons involved until reaching ILS.

There is no such thing on the 744. So, telling you how it's done really won't make any difference. Again, comparing FS to the real world is pretty meaningless in the "tech" forum. Especially, when we're talking about non-existent features.


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