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Single Pilot Emergency Training On 2 Pilot Heavy  
User currently offlineSpeedracer1407 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 333 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

This might be a question that has an obvious answer, but I'll ask it anyway since it seems that layman common sense rarely applies to the complicated world of aviation.

Are pilots of 2 or 3 person flight crews trained in the sims to respond to emergencies in which he or she is the only pilot left to fly the plane? Seems like this kind of training would be sensible, but how far does the training go? Are pilots trained to deal with this situation during a mechanical emergency? Do procedures change (simplified?) to account for the extreme workload of a single pilot scrambling in a 2 or 3 flightcrew environment? Thanks for any replies.

O


Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpeedracer1407 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4657 times:

DOH! Ok, the ONE time I felt confident that no one had posted a similar question recently, it turns out that Julesmusician has asked a different, but somewhat related question. If moderaters choose to deleat this thread, I'll just post the question on Julesmusician's. Otherwise, I'm still curious about my original question, which hasn't yet addressed specifically on the other thread.

O



Dassault Mercure: the plane that has Boeing and Airbus shaking in their boots.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4644 times:

To answer your question....Yes, it is practiced. No, the procedures aren't changed. There is nothing that I can't reach from the left seat, so if the FO is incapacitated, there is no real problem.

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4612 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
There is nothing that I can't reach from the left seat, so if the FO is incapacitated, there is no real problem.

If the situation is reversed, i.e. the Captain is incapacitated, and there's no tiller on the FO's side, presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later".


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

There is a an old story about a captain dying not long after takeoff and the first officer returned the plane to the field. Around the crew lounge the following week it was the topic of many conversations that ran along these lines: The captains were all surprised that they had a copilot at the company who knew how to fly an airplane. The first officers wondered how the guy could tell the captain was dead.

In some sim evolutions I've done "subtle incapacitation" training. It would just be a routine approach but the instructor would pass one of the pilots a note that told him to stop responding at some point. It was really fun. I loved playing the pilot whose mind had just shut down!

As far as steering without a tiller, the first jet I flew, the training captain made me taxi all the way to the final turn toward the jetway with the pedals. Then he'd take over and steer it to the gate. If we parked on an open ramp somewhere he would make me park it without a tiller. Unless a fairly tight turn is required, it can be done. It did require a bit of planning.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
and there's no tiller on the FO's side, presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later".

In a situation as you've described I don't think you're going to taxi to the ramp so it's not a concern. The F/O brings the a/c to a stop on the runway and the emerg./rescue vehicles will meet you there. After all are cared for the jet will be towed to the ramp/gate.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

Well, I didn't really expect anyone to taxi to the gate in those circumstances, I was just thinking of clearing the runway.  Smile

I guess if it can be done with the rudder pedals it's not such a big deal, especially if there's a convenient high-speed turn-off, I suppose.

Thanks, guys.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later".

Considering the Aircraft got back in such a situation.Taxying back to the gate would be the last thing on the Single pilots mind  Smile
Some Aircraft do have tillers on both sides,then theres always the rudder pedals with restricted steering angle & Differential braking.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCcrlR From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4460 times:
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I remember one time where there was a post about a Saab S340 First officer who had to make a emergency landing when his captain had a medical problem, but he ended up landing the aircraft safely and the captain was ok. I would personally think it would be the same for a heavy too and they would be able to land and taxi off if they sit in the left seat.


"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 4):
If we parked on an open ramp somewhere he would make me park it without a tiller.

wouldn't that over stress the nose gear?


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9):
wouldn't that over stress the nose gear?

No, why would it? It just means you have a smaller nose wheel deflection resulting in a wider turn radius.


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4439 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
If the situation is reversed, i.e. the Captain is incapacitated, and there's no tiller on the FO's side, presumably getting the aircraft off the runway is something that would be dealt with "later

would a FO ever ask someone to clear the Captain out the way and he would take over from the left seat? or is it not worth it?


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4429 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 11):
would a FO ever ask someone to clear the Captain out the way and he would take over from the left seat? or is it not worth it?

Not only is is not worth it, it is making things more complicated than necessary. There is no problem with landing the aircraft from the right seat. It is done regularly. Keep things as simple and familiar as possible.

An incapacitated crew member is an emergency. After landing, you will probably get all the ground support you need.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineSean1234 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

What happens if you lose the FE?

User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4448 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4413 times:
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Cabin crews are trained to secure an incapacitated pilot (the gestual is quite interesting by the way) and keep him away from the controls.

I'm shocked that you people would just let the poor guy die on his seat !

Going back to the question asked by the thread starter, yes airline pilots do get that sort of training.
One of the favored scenarios is a pilot incapacitation following a rapid decompression ! very spectacular !

Some airlines advise the remaining pilot to request one FA -or a deadheading - aircrew to assist with the checklist reading.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 13):
What happens if you lose the FE?

Getting coffee takes longer.

Sorry couldn't resist... Big grin No offense to current or past F/Es intended.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 9):
wouldn't that over stress the nose gear

No.Not with wide radius turn.

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 13):
What happens if you lose the FE

Interesting to hear the Answer.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 836 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 13):
What happens if you lose the FE?

Like any passenger or crew member you would asses the situation and whether you are going to divert or seek onboard medical attention or both.

Once that decision has been made, the F/O (depending on company SOPs) will set up the F/E panel for landing prior to descending, i.e. the fuel panel and pressurization, basically put things in a position that won't require you to get out of your seat again, i.e. all the packs on, on high flow, set the landing altitude in the pressuization controller, all fuel tank pumps on (tanks with fuel in them) and then run the decent checklist, you could probably stay in the F/E seat until 15 or 20,000' at which point you could go back to your normal duties.



C152 G115 TB10 CAP10 SR-22 Be76 PA-34 NDN-1T C500 A330-300 A340-300 -600 B747-200F -200SF -400 -400F -400BCF -400ERF -8F
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

Quoting CCA (Reply 17):
the F/O (depending on company SOPs) will set up the F/E panel for landing prior to descending, i.e. the fuel panel and

Are the Pilots trained on the FE job too.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17040 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4328 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Are the Pilots trained on the FE job too.

I think most (?) F/Es are pilots, and many pilots have been F/Es, so there is a lot of knowledge shared.

Also, the pilots would need the training to ensure the can manage an F/E out situation.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
I think most (?) F/Es are pilots, and many pilots have been F/Es, so there is a lot of knowledge shared.

Also, the pilots would need the training to ensure the can manage an F/E out situation.

Well, in some countries (America for example), most of the F/E's are junior/trainee pilots, and are simply there to keep an eye on things.
However, in the UK (with BA atleast) the F/E's were people from engineering, who applied for the F/E job after a certain number of years working on aircrarfts, the F/E's were trained to know the basics of how to fly the plane aswell as do the F/E job, so technically, the F/E could fly the plane.
But I don't think the pilots were trained to use the F/E panel.

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 20):
Well, in some countries (America for example), most of the F/E's are junior/trainee pilots, and are simply there to keep an eye on things.

You are correct that most F/Es are JUNIOR pilots since, based on seniority, that is the lowest seniority seat but all of our new hire pilots are already very experienced with some previous jet experience behind them be it military or civilian. They don't "just keep an eye on things" they are a very integral part of a 3 man crew that has a very important job as well as an extra set of eyes up front. There was a time when the airlines had professional F/Es that were not pilots but often mechanics but that went away totally here as far as I know. Rarely have I seen a pilot that hasn't been an F/E at least once but even if he hasn't every oral you have in school and especially if it's a type rating oral exam will spend a whole lot of time on the engineers panel. You may not know it as well as an F/E will but you WILL know it.


User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6605 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

F/Es in Cathay are just that....F/Es. They are not pilots, but are on the same seniority list. They are guys with vast amounts of experience and a very valuable addition to the flightdeck. We did have some F/Es 'learn' to fly a few years ago when we retired the Tristars and pax 747 Classics. They joined the cadets in Adelaide and did a full ATPL course down there.

As for single pilot ops, we would divert immediately to the nearest SUITABLE airport, which the PF would be happy with. As for removal of the incapacitated pilot, it would really depend on the situation. With an unconscious pilot and an arrival within say 30mins, I would leave the person in the seat. If we had longer, I would search for a doctor to come up. If the person was flailing his arms and legs about, then I would electrically move their seat back and turn off the electrics then get help to remove them from the cockpit.

We are also taught to remove a pilot who may be partially incapacitated. If he/she comes back later and starts giving you instructions, we consider them to still be incapacitated. You just don't know whether they will go mental or start giving you false info. In these cases we would seriously consider sending them back into the cabin to sit, even if they seem to be coherent. Things like this are dealt with on a case by case basis.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Cosmic,

Do you guys have a lot of F/Es on the other end of the spectrum that are "flowbacks"? They hit 60 and for whatever reason they don't retire but fly sidesaddle for a couple years?



DMI
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 23):
Do you guys have a lot of F/Es on the other end of the spectrum that are "flowbacks"?

hello PilotPip,
I can't tell you the exact numbers or percentages but yes a number of guys that turn 60 and don't want to retire will go back to DC-10 or in somecases 727 F/E. Of course you retain your senority number so you will go back a pretty senior guy in the "back seat".


25 HAWK21M : Thats how its out here. regds MEL
26 Starlionblue : So do you get a lot of "back seat driving" or has CRM taken care of that?
27 SlamClick : I used to teach B-727. We taught exactly the same ground school syllabus for new-hire initial 2nd officer (flight engineer) /upgrade to 1st officer /
28 CosmicCruiser : As I said I can't give you percentages or numbers but I still see a bunch of the old guys that I flew with as an f/o that have gone back to the DC-10
29 Starlionblue : Not to hijack the topic, but this brings up the point about the US mandatory retirement age of 60, which seems young to me. Chuck Yeager flew well in
30 2H4 : Indeed. It seems to be working pretty well for the part 91 corporate world. 2H4
31 SlamClick : Well, since you mention it: I remember but I cannot confirm it through Google - there was one move to scrap the age-60 rule in about 1996. I remember
32 CosmicCruiser : Let me add a few little differences though, not only between corp. boys and the airlines but also the alirlines of years ago to muddy the water of th
33 Wrighbrothers : Ah thanks, I wasn't sure if they were junior or trainee pilots. I personaly believe that that way is better, as F/E's can clear an aircraft fit to fl
34 Stoicescu : I'm sure I will get flamed for this and is no problem I accept constructive criticism. But how about us young folks? If the mandatory retirement will
35 SlamClick : Personally I give you a no-flame guarantee on that. You are absolutely right. Nothing airline-hopefuls resent more than some old coot turning sixty a
36 CosmicCruiser : While that might be true just remember you can't have the F/E doing maint. and the front end crew going into crew rest can you? This opens a big can
37 CosmicCruiser : Sorry Starlionblue, I didn't see your post till now...Being in the MD-11 I don't fly with those guys but from What I've heard and yes I have had some
38 HAWK21M : Out here due to shortage of Pilots.The Retirement age has been relaxed to 65yrs subject to stringent & more complex medical & Regulatory requirements
39 Speedracer1407 : I take it that you're not a fan of the age 60 retirement rule. I always figured it made sense since subtle mental incapacitation can indeed creep up
40 Wrighbrothers : Not 100% sure what you mean by that, but i'll got with what I think you meant I didn't mean that they work in the hanger and fly, I meant that he/she
41 CosmicCruiser : OK, I understand. I was thinking of an old fellow who was the co-pilot and A&P on this corp jet yrs. ago and he would come in from a trip , work on t
42 Post contains images SlamClick : Hard to be a fan of any bureaucratic rule that outweighs all possible realities. Never been a fan of bureaucracy of any stripe. Personally I was joyo
43 Post contains images Starlionblue : Sure, but we're looking at this in all walks of life. Is it right to restrict based on an arbitrary rule and not economics? Very good point. I must b
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