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Compressor Stall During Taxi?  
User currently offlineTg 747-300 From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 1318 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

Is it possible to get a compressor stall while on the ground?
I have been reading briefly about stalls and surges, and to me it doesn't seem very likely to occur on the ground.

The reason I'm asking is that back in 2004 when still with the airforce, A F-16 was said to have experienced a compressor stall while taxing out for depature. I remember it taxi out, then a loud "pop" and it returned to the hangar.

tg 747-300


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11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7111 times:

Absolutely. A compressor stall or surge can occur anytime the airflow across the compressor is disturbed to point point of becoming too turbulent to pass through the engine.

The JT9 is famous, amongst maintenance circles, for stalling on the proverbial dime. During high power operations any crosswind presents the opportunity for stall. We are warned and cautioned in the AMM to always point the aircraft into the wind in order to reduce, not prevent, the occurance of a stall.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7104 times:

arent they more likely to happen on the ground?
during times of quick acceleration and deceleration of the engine? i.e. during start, and on selecting take off power?


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3084 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

The number 2 engine on a B727 is also notorious for compressor stalls in a cross wind during taxi.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6949 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 2):
arent they more likely to happen on the ground?
during times of quick acceleration and deceleration of the engine? i.e. during start, and on selecting take off power?

Compressor stalls on modern jet engines are most likely to happen at (1) quick acceleration and (2) high powersettings.

This means that during taxiing, you'll probably never encounter it (on modern aircraft) except if there is damage to the engine, perhaps by a bird strike, or even a big plastic bag or a trench coat that's been sucked in the engine.

A stall simply means that the pressure in the forward part of the compressor section (there may be around 10 compressor discs or so) is insufficient to achieve the higher pressure in the aft part of the compressor section. If a compressor section has a compression ratio of 10:1, this means that the air going into the section at 10 psi is compressed to 100 psi (fictitious figures). Now if for some reason, the airflow is disturbed and entry pressure goes down to, say, 3 psi (ie. there's not enough air going in), then the 100 psi on the other end may expand in a forward direction, which causes the surge (because the engine's not made for that).

As you can imagine, the two most critical times are indeed upon acceleration where you need a continually increasing amount of pressure, and at high power settings, where you also need lots of air pressure in the inlet to maintain the high power setting.

Hope that explains it a bit!


Grbld


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6777 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):



The number 2 engine on a B727 is also notorious for compressor stalls in a cross wind during taxi.

Why #2 Is it becaue of the Ducting.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17053 posts, RR: 67
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6754 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):



The number 2 engine on a B727 is also notorious for compressor stalls in a cross wind during taxi.

Why #2 Is it becaue of the Ducting.

Yes. In fact on the very first 727 test flight the #2 engine surged on rotation. Boeing went so far as to tuft (attach strings in lots of places) the whole duct to figure it out. While the situation improved with redesign, occasional surges still occur.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6729 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Perkins
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Jean


Interesting Pics.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6715 times:

The Tristar with RB211-524 engines is restricted to about 90% power at standstill due to limited airflow through the intake duct. It will surge if you open the throttle any more. It means you can never do take off power checks on the ground run bay!
With RB211-22B you can get up to 100% power, but must be turned into wind. Any cross wind and it starts surging.

With a large fan engine like Trent on B777, even at idle you can hear it burbling at idle in strong cross winds as it tries to suck in the air.


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3084 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6665 times:

Plus the number two engine attaches to the duct via a flexiable connection that can be dammaged real easy.....A lot of the compresser surges can be attributed to this being bent when the engine is installed and therefore disturbing the airflow...

I believe the UPS #2 intake is unique to the R.R Tay re-engineing that they did.....The -100 has a oval duct while a -200 has a round...

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineExPratt From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6663 times:

A gas turbine engine can stall or surge whenever it is running. It is more likely to stall at high power or on a quick accel, but it can do it at all power ranges. At low power, it could be a minor chug whereas at high power it could the loud bang complete with flames out the inlet and tailpipe.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 9):
believe the UPS #2 intake is unique to the R.R Tay re-engineing that they did.....The -100 has a oval duct while a -200 has a round...

Any details/link.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
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