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737 Autoland Information Requested  
User currently offline60Victor From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 31 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11243 times:

What models of the 737 can do an autoland? Are the autoland capabilities the same for all the models? The reason I ask is that I was not aware until just recently that the 737-300, 400 and 500 can do autolands? I thought autoland was only an option available for the NG series 737-600, 700, 800 and 900.

Thank You,

60Victor

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11233 times:

Autoland is not an option, it's a basic autopilot function. They did it 25 years ago and is required for such low-visibility situations that the pilots can't land it themselves.

There are differences in certification (what your operating and weather requirements are) and how it works. Some older systems don't have rudder/nosewheel authority and only fly pitch/bank. The systems that do will actually keep the aircraft on the centerline after touchdown, the other ones require the pilot to take control right after touchdown.

As a rule of thumb, aircraft that don't have autothrottle, even modern ones (like a EMB145) can't do autoland.

That's it in a nutshell!


Grbld


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11194 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 1):
Autoland is not an option, it's a basic autopilot function.

No AA 738 is autoland capable. AA opted for a manually flown CATIII HUD instead.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineATLAMT From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 240 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11190 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 2):
No AA 738 is autoland capable. AA opted for a manually flown CATIII HUD instead.

Delta's 738's are autoland capable and they also have the hud. The hud adds the ability for a low visability takeoff.



Fwd to MCO and Placard
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11182 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 1):
As a rule of thumb, aircraft that don't have autothrottle, even modern ones (like a EMB145) can't do autoland.

The CRJ's as well? What about the new E-Jets (E-170/190)

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 2):
No AA 738 is autoland capable. AA opted for a manually flown CATIII HUD instead.

As was noted after the MDW accident... Southwest's 73G's are likewise.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11162 times:

Quoting ATLAMT (Reply 3):
The hud adds the ability for a low visability takeoff.

300 feet... now all I need is an airport with a runway certified for 300 foot visibility takeoffs.  covereyes 

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
As was noted after the MDW accident... Southwest's 73G's are likewise.

I suspect you'll find more and more HUDs installed as opposed to Autoland capability. AA test flew both and supposedly the HUD easily outperformed Autoland and is considerably less costly to maintain.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11160 times:

The British Airways B737-236 delivered in 1980? were autoland capable. They were modified on production to have a dual autopilot and were Cat 3 capable, but with higher limits than today. Most B737-200 only had a single autopilot and were not autoland capable.

User currently offline60Victor From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 23 hours ago) and read 11137 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 6):
I suspect you'll find more and more HUDs installed as opposed to Autoland capability. AA test flew both and supposedly the HUD easily outperformed Autoland and is considerably less costly to maintain.

Correct me if I am wrong but the use of the HUD requires the pilot to Manually land the plane whereas an autoland landing auto lands the plane and then the pilot takes over?


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 22 hours ago) and read 11116 times:

Quoting 60Victor (Reply 7):
Correct me if I am wrong but the use of the HUD requires the pilot to Manually land the plane whereas an autoland landing auto lands the plane and then the pilot takes over?

You are correct with the exception that some autoland systems have the capability for the autopilot to "fly" the rollout and the pilot only taking over to turn off the runway. Depends upon the system, installation and what the customer wants.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 22 hours ago) and read 11114 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 4):
The CRJ's as well?

I don't know but i can tell you that LH cityline fitted HUDs on some of their CRJs.  Smile
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineBa299 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 173 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 22 hours ago) and read 11105 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 9):
I don't know but I can tell you that LH cityline fitted HUDs on some of their CRJs.
Dominic

All LH Cityline's CRJ and RJ85 are fitted with HUD and they operate with CATIIIA approach


User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 11018 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 2):
No AA 738 is autoland capable. AA opted for a manually flown CATIII HUD instead.

In that case, it's actually disabled per customer request, just like at SWA. The autopilot can do it by default. There's even a CATIIIb option now available with the new Collins APs.

Regarding HUDs, are there any that are CATIIIb/c certified? Does the HUD provide flare and thrust retardation 'commands'?
CATIIIa still requires a DH (decision height), whereas CATIIIb only requires a visibility value and CATIIIc is for 0/0 weather.


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months ago) and read 11011 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 11):
In that case, it's actually disabled per customer request, just like at SWA. The autopilot can do it by default. There's even a CATIIIb option now available with the new Collins APs.

The difference is one of certification vs. physical capability. While the basic airframe comes with an autopilot capable CAT-III approaches & autoland, it is not certified for CAT-III approaches & autoland. It remains a customer option.

Quote:
Regarding HUDs, are there any that are CATIIIb/c certified?

I know of none at this time.

Quote:
Does the HUD provide flare and thrust retardation 'commands'?

Yes.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10980 times:

Quoting Ba299 (Reply 10):
All LH Cityline's CRJ and RJ85 are fitted with HUD and they operate with CATIIIA approach

That´s not correct. There are no HUD installed on the LH CityLine RJ85. You are right about their CRJ. They all have a HUGS installed.

I´m not sure if there is any option to install a HUGS on the Avro RJ. Never seen that and it was not mentioned on the course. But that was some years ago...



This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10927 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 12):
The difference is one of certification vs. physical capability. While the basic airframe comes with an autopilot capable CAT-III approaches & autoland, it is not certified for CAT-III approaches & autoland.

Well, partly agree. It may be that AA's operation and crew are not certified to do CAT III approaches and autoland on the 737, but the aircraft is certified to perform those things. The FAA and JAA don't actually provide a different type certificates based on customer options. It may be the case that on board autoland systems are not maintained and therefore, they're not valid for use in actual autoland conditions, or, they may even be disabled.

Grbld


User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3474 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10877 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 14):
Well, partly agree. It may be that AA's operation and crew are not certified to do CAT III approaches and autoland on the 737, but the aircraft is certified to perform those things. The FAA and JAA don't actually provide a different type certificates based on customer options.

Not "customer options" but rather "manufacturer's configuration." AA elected to not purchase CAT-III/Autoland certification from Boeing so the planes came certified for CAT-II/Dual Autopilot Coupled Approaches only.

Quote:
It may be the case that on board autoland systems are not maintained and therefore, they're not valid for use in actual autoland conditions, or, they may even be disabled.

AA's planes came from the factory without Flight Director Rollout Guidance (without which the autopilot can not perform an autoland). The airframes never received FAA CAT-III/Autoland certification since none of the planes can autoland. If someone purchased the planes they would have to go Boeing [verify and/or reconfigure & test to FAR standards] to obtain a CAT-III/Autoland certification.

AA went to a third-party supplier for its HUD in order to obtain CAT-III capability for its 738 fleet. That HUD uses the 738's Flight Director for Non-Precision & CAT-I approaches, but uses its own flight guidance computer for CAT-II/III approaches.

In a separate move, once all AA 738's were HUD equipped and operating AA permitted the CAT-II/coupled A/P certification to lapse (lack of maintenance & training) as all low-visibility approaches would be conducted using HUD equipment & procedures. If someone purchased the planes they could (relatively) easily perform the required maintenance to reobtain the planes' original CAT-II/coupled A/P approach certification. However, to get CAT-III/Autoland would require Boeing's involvement.

I got on AA's 738 fleet shortly before the first HUD units were to be delivered so it made for some interesting training--and explaining about the "how & why" of AA's 738 HUD decision process. One of the newer rumors spreading in "the schoolhouse" is that AA is reviewing if it wants to maintain CAT-III capability throughout all of its fleet (very costly). The one plane NOT being "reviewed" is the 738 due to the very low cost necessary to maintain the HUD and its CAT-III capability (no additional maintenance).

As additional info for those who wonder why HUD CAT-III approaches are all "hand flown" vs. using autopilot(s), it has to do with the STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) issued to all third-party HUD systems. The basic 737 comes certified for CAT-I/coupled autopilot approaches so the HUD simply displays a greatly expanded view of the basic 737's Fight Guidance Computer (Flight Director) info. If the normal instruments command "nose up" the HUD shows a rather significant "nose up" as well. OTOH, for CAT-II/III approaches the HUD uses its own internal flight guidance computer (too many variations of capabilities available) so it is possible to have normal instruments commanding (for example) "nose up" and the HUD commanding "nose down." Since the autopilot(s) are coupled to the aircraft's FGCs, they can not fly the HUD commands. Hence the requirement for HUD CAT-II/III approaches to be manually hand-flown by the pilot.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10831 times:

CO 737's are equipped this way:

737-300, -500: CAT II Autoland, DH 100 FT, and RVR, (Runway Visual Range), 1200 FT minimum.

737-700 ,-800, -900: CAT III A, No DH, and RVR 600 FT minimum. No HUD's

I was riding jumpseat in a 737-800 a while back and the Capt. performed an autoland (IAH). It was cool to watch but definitely spooky also. All the pilots did were move the flaps and landing gear lever and then deploy the thrust reversers on touchdown and brakes too of course. The autopilot's did the rest.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
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