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Non Type Rated Pilot Landing An Aircraft?  
User currently offlineGoinv From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 264 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5092 times:

OK - I agree, it's a twist on an idea that has been discussed to death. We've all wondered and speculated whether an airliner buff, with 2 trillion hours behind the joystick of a simulated Boeing 737 could actually land the thing if both captain and first officer were to beome incapacitated.

But what if they were unable to fly the plane and another pilot was on board. This pilot would be Commercial Airliner certified (I believe ATP rating ?) - but not for the type of plane that he/she was in. How much chance do they have of landing it safely?

There could be a not so obvious difference. Pilot certified on B737-300 and hsa to land a B737-700. Same type of plane but vastly different flight decks.

How about some obvious ones...
Saab 340 pilot has to land a B747
B737 pilot has to land an Airbus A321
Airbus A340 pilot has to land an ATR 72

Are we looking at certain death and destruction, or a nice safe landing ?


Be who you are, The world was made to measure for your smile. So Smile.
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

Reasonably safe landing. Sure, it won't be a greaser, and they won't know how to fire up the APU (if equipped, some of the jets in your list don't have one), but anyone who can fly a transport-category aircraft obviously has at least some grasp of the concept.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9004 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 4996 times:

Quoting Goinv (Thread starter):
Saab 340 pilot has to land a B747

Prob not a chance, technology and mass differance too great.

Quoting Goinv (Thread starter):
B737 pilot has to land an Airbus A321

Most prob could be instructed to do an autoland, not a manual landing. A320 much more technology installed over a 737.

Quoting Goinv (Thread starter):
Airbus A340 pilot has to land an ATR 72

Would be okay, going backwards in technology.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineMikkel777 From Norway, joined Oct 2002, 370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4958 times:

"First ever landing of a FS2002 "pilot" in a real world simulator. It turned out better than most professionals...the young student (18 years old) had no flying experience nor had he been in a simulator before!!!!"

Download the movie at:

http://www.fsaviation.com/~airvideo/a340/1a/a340/a340student.zip

Looks like the 340 can be landed in nice conditions by almost anyone  Wink


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2432 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

I recently asked this question to the Director of Engineering Flight Test at Cessna Aircraft Company.
He has thousands of hours in business jets. I asked him if he had to land a commercial airliner, what would it be like.

He said it wouldn't be that difficult. The speeds, techniques, etc are about the same. He said it may not be the smoothest landing, but it wouldn't be difficult. This assumes that all of the systems are operational, etc.

If there were system failures, engine out, etc that would make it a little more difficult because he wouldn't be familiar with the non-standard or emergency procedures.

I have been on Functionality and Reliability testing (pre Type Certification) in a business jet where the pilot in command had zero time in the airplane and the copilot had less than 10 hours in the plane, and the plane was on an experimental ticket.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Non-type rated pilots land airliners all the time. First officers often aren't typed in the airplane  Smile

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):
Would be okay, going backwards in technology.

Not necessarily. When you take an airline pilot and put them in something as simple as a Cessna 152 for the first time in years.... without that instructor there, theres a good chance they would've killed themselves.


User currently offlineCALPilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):
Quoting Goinv (Thread starter):
Saab 340 pilot has to land a B747

Prob not a chance, technology and mass differance too great

Funny I've seen a number of turbo-prop Regional Pilots fly the B767, MD80, and B737 sims during interviews for pilot positions do a very good job.

My guess is that they would have no problem with the B747.


User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2432 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
When you take an airline pilot and put them in something as simple as a Cessna 152 for the first time in years.... without that instructor there, theres a good chance they would've killed themselves

Agree. I know an AA 767 FO, and now MD-80 Captain. He rented a 172 locally to take up a friend of his. But before he could rent it, he had to go up with an instructor for some touch and goes. He said he forgot how much work it was to fly the little planes. He said he didn't work that hard when he flew 767s transatlantic.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineBeechNut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 725 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):
Prob not a chance, technology and mass differance too great.

The issue with the 747 is the sight picture with the cockpit so high above the ground. It really requires radar altimeter callouts (which I believe are automated on at least the 747-400, don't know about the other marques) to manually land it properly. I should think that getting it down the ILS for a Saab pilot wouldn't be so bad; though he'd have to learn to manage mass and momentum in a big way, always a major issue with the heavies. Some coaching from the ground would help.

Remember that when the mains touch on a 747 the cockpit is still right up there, and if you flare it wrong (like right over the numbers like you would in a Saab) you might be putting the mains down short of the runway!

We're all assuming though, that not only did the two (or three) qualified pilots all die/become incapacitated, but also autoland doesn't work aren't we  Smile

Which of course isn't very likely.

Beech.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 6):
Funny I've seen a number of turbo-prop Regional Pilots fly the B767, MD80, and B737 sims during interviews for pilot positions do a very good job.

I wasn't going to get involved with this again but silly me here typing away...Yes, that is true even Fedex uses the DC-10 sim (I think, since I flew the 727 23 yrs. ago when I interviewed) but all that is involved is climbs, glides, airspeed control and maybe an entry into a hold. It checks one's instrument scan and overall ability. No one would be expected to be able to make big airspeed/trim changes with configuration changes down to a landing.


Quoting CitationJet (Reply 7):
He said he forgot how much work it was to fly the little planes. He said he didn't work that hard when he flew 767s transatlantic.

I'm sure he was being a little humorous. I flew a little plane a couple of summers ago and realized how my sight picture was forgotten for the little plane. I kept flaring at 30'!! There's certainly a lot of truth to the fact that a single pilot flying IFR has a lot on his shoulders but two pilots in a big jet have a lot going on too just in different ways.

As someone said above, the biggest difference is probably the inertia of the jet being so much diff in a big jet vs. a small plane. What can be changed in a few feet in a small plane may take a couple of 100' in a heavy jet. That's part of the reason behind the stable approach as a high sinkrate on short final may not be stopped. Consider the Fedex MD-11 accident in EWR..the app was good till about the last 100' when a higher sinkrate was established and the rest is history. .


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3393 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

A320 much more technology installed over a 737.

You're kidding, right? A current generation 737 is very comparable to a A230.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9004 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 4):
He said it wouldn't be that difficult. The speeds, techniques, etc are about the same. He said it may not be the smoothest landing, but it wouldn't be difficult.

I would disagree, flying and landing is not the same, the question related to landing. On larger aircraft an actual technique is used for landing.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
Non-type rated pilots land airliners all the time. First officers often aren't typed in the airplane

By ICAO rules they should be, I think this hole is changing for charter flights in the USA also. On airliners the FO would have to be type rated.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 5):
Not necessarily. When you take an airline pilot and put them in something as simple as a Cessna 152 for the first time in years.... without that instructor there, theres a good chance they would've killed themselves.

The large change in flare height is the only thing I have to force myself to do, apart from thinking its normal to have a very poor acceleration rate.

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 6):
Funny I've seen a number of turbo-prop Regional Pilots fly the B767, MD80, and B737 sims during interviews for pilot positions do a very good job.

Do they land the aircraft, or fly on instruments ?

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 8):
The issue with the 747 is the sight picture with the cockpit so high above the ground. It really requires radar altimeter callouts (which I believe are automated on at least the 747-400, don't know about the other marques) to manually land it properly. I should think that getting it down the ILS for a Saab pilot wouldn't be so bad; though he'd have to learn to manage mass and momentum in a big way, always a major issue with the heavies. Some coaching from the ground would help.

Best chance would be to talk through an autoland.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 10):
You're kidding, right? A current generation 737 is very comparable to a A230.

No I am not kidding, A320s been capable of single engine cat 3 autolands for I guess 20+ years, pretty sure the first boeing to do that was the 777 (and no the 747 does not do nice single engine autolands). 737NG not capable of it either.

It takes a little getting used to to go from yoke to sidestick, could talk through a 737 pilot how to program the autopilot to do an autoland, however it would not be not be possible without training to work out how to do it unassisted.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineSeanp11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4815 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 11):
737NG not capable of it either.

http://www.b737.org.uk/glareshield.htm
Scroll down to the bottom. All NGs from line #1278 (feb 2003) on have the rockwell collins enhanced digital flight control system, which is capable of cat IIIb autoland, and can perform an engine out landing due to the addition of a rudder servo.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9004 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 12):
Scroll down to the bottom

Looking at the limitations on the same site http://www.b737.org.uk/limitations.htm

Quote:
Autoland capability may only be used with flaps 30 or 40 and both engines operative.

I am not 737 rated, this is consistant with what I have been told in the past.

320 onwards are capable of doing a single engine RNAV/NPA down to the runway with autopilot on, however its an FCOM limitation that this cannot be done.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCalpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
I wasn't going to get involved with this again but silly me here typing away...Yes, that is true even Fedex uses the DC-10 sim (I think, since I flew the 727 23 yrs. ago when I interviewed) but all that is involved is climbs, glides, airspeed control and maybe an entry into a hold. It checks one's instrument scan and overall ability. No one would be expected to be able to make big airspeed/trim changes with configuration changes down to a landing.

The checking part of the sim in a interview ride, yes is just flying the airplane. But, I have seen young men/women do fine landing the jet for fun with some short info.


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 11):
By ICAO rules they should be, I think this hole is changing for charter flights in the USA also. On airliners the FO would have to be type rated.

Not at all...for example, the only pilots type rated on the aircraft at DL are pilots flying 757 and larger equipment...so the 737 and MD-88 pilots are flying around without a type rating. Doesn't make a bit of difference in the long run, they will still satisfy the proficiency requirements.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

Quoting Calpilot (Reply 14):
I have seen young men/women do fine landing the jet for fun with some short info.

Not to continue the point too much but I've also seen sim maint. guys come into the sim, lean over my shoulder, grab the yoke with one hand and fly a perfect ILS just to check out and minor glitch that they fixed and yet they couldn't fly the jet if they had to.


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9004 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 15):
Not at all...for example, the only pilots type rated on the aircraft at DL are pilots flying 757 and larger equipment...so the 737 and MD-88 pilots are flying around without a type rating. Doesn't make a bit of difference in the long run, they will still satisfy the proficiency requirements.

How is this possible ? Are they all flying around illegally non-ICAO ? Minimum crew on both types is two pilots.

From Annex 1 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation - Personnel Licensing

2.1.3.2 Type ratings shall be established for:

a) each type of aircraft certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots;


b) each type of helicopter certificated for single-pilot
operation except where a class rating has been issued
under 2.1.3.1.1; and

c) any type of aircraft whenever considered necessary by
the Licensing Authority.

2.1.3.3 When an applicant demonstrates skill and knowledge
for the initial issue of a pilot licence, the category and the
ratings appropriate to the class or type of aircraft used in the
demonstration shall be entered on the licence.

2.1.4 Circumstances in which class
and type ratings are required

2.1.4.1 A Contracting State having issued a pilot licence
shall not permit the holder of such licence to act either as pilot in-
command or as co-pilot
of an aeroplane or helicopter unless
the holder has received authorization as follows:
a) the appropriate class rating specified in 2.1.3.1; or
b) a type rating when required in accordance with the
provisions of 2.1.3.2.


2.1.4.1.1 When a type rating is issued limiting the
privileges to act as co-pilot, or limiting the privileges to act as
pilot only during the cruise phase of the flight, such limitation
shall be endorsed on the rating.

2.1.4.2 For the purpose of training, testing, or specific
special purpose non-revenue, non-passenger carrying flights,
special authorization may be provided in writing to the licence
holder by the Licensing Authority in place of issuing the class
or type rating in accordance with 2.1.4.1. This authorization
shall be limited in validity to the time needed to complete the
specific flight.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineSeanp11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4760 times:

I'd think that flying under FAA regs domestically would allow this.
FAR part 61.31

Quote:
Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:

It appears that, according to the FAA, its ok to fly without a type rating, as long as the PIC holds the proper type rating.


User currently offlineSCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5506 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4753 times:

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 6):
Funny I've seen a number of turbo-prop Regional Pilots fly the B767, MD80, and B737 sims during interviews for pilot positions do a very good job.

We all know that the full-motion sim is not the same thing as the airplane, but it is close enough to count as a legally-accepted alternative.

The piloting principles remain the same and, given an adequate time to familiarize oneself with the essentials (speeds, configurations), pilots with reasonably significant experience in complex aircraft would have a decent shot at a successful landing (might not be one you'd enjoy).

When I flew a full-motion 737-300 sim, I was able to do a tolerable job of flying it, and landed without much difficulty (toughest part being holding power so far into the approach). My experience is strictly single-engined, high-performance, complex, instrument.

YMMV.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4753 times:

We just recently started giving SIC types to our FO's.


Things are a bit different in the US, Zeke.

I'm not going to jump in on the rest of the stuff.... I have no doubt that I could jump into a bus or boeing (jumpseated in most models) and at least get the thing on the ground... might crack the runway, but it would be survivable. Stick and rudder is stick and rudder...



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMikkel777 From Norway, joined Oct 2002, 370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4734 times:

Landing a jet-sim is not difficult at all. Back when I was a private pilot, I got to try a level-C full motion MD80 sim, the old gauges type. Did 3 sucessfull patterns without autopilot, and using the autothrottle only on downwind. Had a guy in the seat next to me, who put out flaps and gear on my commands. I didn't know the ref speeds, but guesstimated them close enough. All landings were survivable for both aircraft and pax.

If you can handfly that thing in the pattern, flying a 320 or 737 sim with autopilot and autothrottle on an ILS until short final should be easier.


User currently offlineLorM From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 409 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Did the 744 full motion sim at the UA TK Denver Training Center in Nov 2004 during the AVSIM.com conference. Great time, surprised myself on the results. SFO was the sim setup and did 3 visual and 1 ILS / take-offs on 28L/R, plus 1 visual touch and go on 28L and 1 visual 19L landing. 5 landings within the TDZ, and the last one before I left I did a 1 hop bounce go figure!  sigh . All my paterns were sucessful - never had to reset any part of the sim!  Smile

VREF was 163 knots and 630k lbs landing weight was the setup during the session with calm winds from 280. Autothrottle from climb thrust altitude to DH on the first couple with just on final on the last two. My second seat was UA Captain Kirk Triplett who was extremely friendly and accomidating did the flaps, gear (wish I remembered, always wanted to pull the gear handle sigh !), and radios. Didn't bother to use the autopilot, was having too much fun and wish I reserved more time, I could have stayed there all night.....
-L



Brick Windows
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9004 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4691 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 20):
I'm not going to jump in on the rest of the stuff.... I have no doubt that I could jump into a bus or boeing (jumpseated in most models) and at least get the thing on the ground... might crack the runway, but it would be survivable. Stick and rudder is stick and rudder...

I agree, however on the airbus its the programming for the landing that need to be done right otherwise it will not slow down, nor will it tune the ILS.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4665 times:

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 18):
It appears that, according to the FAA, its ok to fly without a type rating, as long as the PIC holds the proper type rating.

That's correct . Here we don't type F/Os in the 727 or DC-10 but everyone gets typed in the MD-11 (because they fly as RFO too). I don't know whether Airbus F/Os get a type or not, I doubt it.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 23):
however on the airbus its the programming for the landing that need to be done right otherwise it will not slow down, nor will it tune the ILS.

That's true for all the FMS generation jets


25 CitationJet : Regarding the pilot I discussed in Reply #7 above, he was an F-16 pilot before being hired by AA. He took MD-80 simulator training at AA. The first t
26 CosmicCruiser : There in lies the diff. Having come a high performance jet he was already familiar with swept wing jet characteristics and high app .speeds. True but
27 CitationJet : And my Reply #4 related to landing. I agree that the original question related to landing. His answer also applied to landings. He said that the same
28 CosmicCruiser : Right you are. However as I posted earlier the BIG diff between the two is sight picture on app and ldg and the diff in inertia management. If you're
29 Starlionblue : Even I've done that... But then again I didn't have to deal with radios, navigation, screaming pax, malfunctions. It's not all in the flying itself.
30 Mikkel777 : I think this thread is more about stick'n rudder handling of different aircraft, and how demanding it is to fly something different. But of course I
31 Miller22 : The Saab pilot would have no problem with the 747. Its the 747 pilot in the saab, I'd be worried about.
32 A319XFW : When the A380 visited Dubai for the airshow, on one flight EK pilots were flying with it. Apparently a few of them had never even flown an Airbus befo
33 Doug_Or : I gave tours to alumni a few years ago and babysat them as they went back to the 727 sim. Every pilot currently operating an EFIS plane set off the GP
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