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Different Companies - Different Procedures - Why?  
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3763 posts, RR: 29
Posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5619 times:

I read several times that every company has their own procedures, for example on how to do callouts, and that these procedures are approved by the authorities.

Why do different companies have different procedures, is that better than having every detail regulated by the authorities? What's the purpose of giving companies some discretion on how to react to certain events?

Are these company rules legally binding for the flight crew, or are they only guidelines?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
Why do different companies have different procedures

The answer is in your question. Different Companies. They're different and so wont do things exactly the same way. They'll all give the same effect, but there is more than one way to "skin a cat"...

Normally, company rules are not legally binding as such (Although when you are employed you sign a legal contract that you will follow the company rules). However failure to follow them will cause an inicident which you will be liabel for AND/OR result in termination of your employment at said airline.



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5601 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 1):
Normally, company rules are not legally binding as such

A little gray area here. Air carrier procedures are approved (at least here in the US) by the FAA. Violation of those procedures carry penalties from the company but may also carry penalties from the FAA.

Typically, an organization's procedure will be equal to or more restrictive than the manufacturer's or the FAA's. I'll give an example from the maintenance side of the house.

Tire wear limits are controlled by our General Maintenance Manual, which contains the rules, regulations and procedures we follow as a maintnance organization. The AMM also has tire wear limits. If we allowed our tires to go to the AMM limit, we would only rarely be able to salvage the carcass. Our GMM limit is much more restrictive and holds the weight of law in the eyes of the FAA.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5542 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
I'll give an example from the maintenance side of the house.

My impression of the original question is more directed to flt crew, specifically call-outs as stated. You're right, as far as tire limits, they are black and white, but to give maybe a better example is the generation of paperwork. How defects are recorded, defered, which copies go where (pink to records, yellow to mcc etc....) they vary from company to company. I know one company had a problem with engine cowls not latched properly, now for thier mtce, it is a dual item requiring a log entry every time they are opened, meanwhile for us, it is not. We had a spacer go missing 15yrs ago on a wheel change, wheel R+R is a dual signiture but not for the preceeding company. Neither of these cases were mandated by Transport Canada, it was an in house originated procedure.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

We don't own the airplanes... the company does. They pay us to operate the aircraft the way they specify. If it requires a hog call at 80 knots, we do a hog call. There is input from the pilot group and procedures change as time goes by.... typically for the better and making them more efficient. I've seen my carrier mature in their procedures over the past 2 years... certainly for the better.

The procedures and rules are signed off by the FAA, thus are more or less regs. Some things are actually different than the regs, such as our alternate minimums. We have "sliding" alternate minimums, and there is also a thing called exemption 3585 that allows us to be dispatched to an airport that is conditionally forcasted to be up to half below minimums. Just one of many examples.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5515 times:

It basically comes down to this: Company philosophy.

You see the same thing in all kinds of markets. You see it between Boeing and Airbus. You even see changes in design and operating philosophy between older and newer Boeings. One example is a device called "speed trim". In the 727 and 737 (even the NG), this system will work against you if you deviate from a certain airspeed by increasing yoke pressure to make you go back to the original speed. On the 757/767 and 777 (although through FBW), "speed trim" works 180 degrees the other way: It actually makes flying the plane easier for you if you accelerate or decelerate from the original speed. I guess somewhere in the Seventies, they changed their philosophy.
A different example between Boeing and Airbus is that Boeing thinks that point-to-point travel is the way of the future and Airbus believes in hub-and-spoke. Both are multi-billion-dollar companies and have a batallion of experts on hand, and still they arrive at different philosophies.

Same goes for airlines. Some find that because their operation is such, they need a specific set of procedures. Other find that because their operation is different, they need a different set of procedures. But even airlines doing the exact same thing can have different philosophies. Some give more authority to the F/O, some none at all. Some have stricter limitations than the other. Some want more cross checks and call outs, and some need fewer. It is all a result of company culture, procedure makers, experience within the airline that causes these different philosophies.

Grbld


User currently offlineEssentialpowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5509 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 5):
You even see changes in design and operating philosophy between older and newer Boeings. One example is a device called "speed trim".

Could you elaborate on what "speed trim" is and how its activated? Details will help...


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3763 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 5):

Thank you very much for your insights. Is there a measurable safety impact of these procedures? I mean, certainly if these procedures must be approved they should all be safe, but can it be said that some companies have a "safer" philosophy than others?


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
Our GMM limit is much more restrictive and holds the weight of law in the eyes of the FAA.

The FAA approves only three aircraft manuals, the AFM (flight manual) the SRM (structural repair) and the MRB (maintenance review board). The other manuals contained the manufactures recommended procedures that can be add to or deleted from as the operator sees fit.


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5491 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 5):
"speed trim" works 180 degrees the other way:

Isn't that the original way???


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5485 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 8):
The FAA approves only three aircraft manuals, the AFM (flight manual) the SRM (structural repair) and the MRB (maintenance review board). The other manuals contained the manufactures recommended procedures that can be add to or deleted from as the operator sees fit.

What about the rest of the controlled and revised manuals that exist in an airline's inventory? Are you telling me that the company is free to change the MEL as it sees fit? No, the MEL is developed in concert with the operator, the manufacturer and the FAA. Revision is allowed only if all 3 concur. In fact, I worked for an operator where ever page of the MEL had an FAA signature.

The AMM, the IPC, the WDM, the company's procedures manual, the loading manual, the Cold Weather Operations Manual, the Flight Manual, the Aircraft Operating Manual, the QRH, the various checklists. The list goes on and on. These manuals and their content are all reviewed and approved by the FAA. Violation of the provisions of any of these manuals can mean certificate action (individual and company) by the FAA.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5475 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 10):
What about the rest of the controlled and revised manuals that exist in an airline's inventory? Are you telling me that the company is free to change the MEL as it sees fit? No, the MEL is developed in concert with the operator, the manufacturer and the FAA. Revision is allowed only if all 3 concur. In fact, I worked for an operator where ever page of the MEL had an FAA signature.

MEL is a section of the AFM, which is FAA approved.


User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 9):
Quoting Grbld (Reply 5):
"speed trim" works 180 degrees the other way:

Isn't that the original way???

 Smile How about "180 degrees the same way"? Now that would sound confusing!

Speed trim is activated whenever you're hand-flying (not on autopilot) and you're accelerating or decelerating from the trimmed speed (all aircraft are trimmed for a certain airspeed, except Airbusses which have a computer take care of all the laws of physics) and you're not using the trim. On the older Boeings and the 737NG, the system thinks you're doing something wrong and will work against you to get you back to the trimmed speed. On newer Boeings, the system aids you and makes it easier to hand-fly.

Grbld


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5381 times:

Some companies adopt procedures to make their flight crews work more efficiently and safely.The new procedures are based on the airplane operating manuals and can not override it.

A very simple example for you.We have Airbus 320 family and the 340's also.Mostly the 320 family pilots upgrade to A340 after a while and to make the transition easier we adopt some 340 procedures to 320 family.

And another example in the Airbus SOP the PF always taxies the airplane but our company gave this job to Captain only since we have FO's with different experience levels on the type.So this reduces the chances of taxi incidents can be caused by an new FO on the type.



Widen your world
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5338 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 12):
Speed trim is activated whenever you're hand-flying (not on autopilot) and you're accelerating or decelerating from the trimmed speed (all aircraft are trimmed for a certain airspeed, except Airbusses which have a computer take care of all the laws of physics) and you're not using the trim. On the older Boeings and the 737NG, the system thinks you're doing something wrong and will work against you to get you back to the trimmed speed. On newer Boeings, the system aids you and makes it easier to hand-fly.

Grbld

What "system" you are describing simply sounds like flying a trimmed a/c in the example you give of the "older Boeings and the 737NG, and your description of the new Boeings is vague and sounds like you aren't sure what you are talking about in that case either.

If so, how is it powered? Does it trim the a/c or is it an avionics system like a flight director que? I've never heard of "speed trim" in the manner in which you describe it...


User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5247 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 14):
sounds like you aren't sure what you are talking about in that case either.

Thanks, EP, I've have been flying the 737NG and 757 for years now, but it's always nice to see someone regarding my systems knowledge as "vague" and saying that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Of course, feel free to pick up a couple of Boeing FCOMs and you'll find all the info you need.

The speed trim system (which is a logic system) operates the electrical stabilizer trim motors, it's not that revolutionary.

Grbld


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

Sounds like you are describing the regular trim system...how does a `logic system` interface with the stab trim motors?

User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Come on EssentialPowr,

You're starting to offend me a little bit. Why is it that you're second guessing my knowledge here?

From my Boeing 737 FCOM:
"The speed trim system (STS) is a speed stability augmentation system designed to improve flight characteristics [...] The purpose of the STS is to return the airplane to a trimmed speed by commanding the stabilizer in a direction opposite the speed change."

From my Boeing 757 FCOM:
"The speed trim system improves speed stability by trimming the stabilizer as airspeed changes."

This is one thing that you notice if you transition between the 757 and the 737, the amount of trimming that's needed on a 737 which is not needed on the 757.

Both systems operate the electrical stabilizer trim motors, there really isn't that much to it.

Happy?


Grbld

[Edited 2006-03-07 18:59:30]

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5126 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 12):
Speed trim is activated whenever you're hand-flying (not on autopilot) and you're accelerating or decelerating from the trimmed speed (all aircraft are trimmed for a certain airspeed, except Airbusses which have a computer take care of all the laws of physics) and you're not using the trim.

So the stab is trimmed by the speed trim when

1. the a/p is disconnected, and
2. the trim is not being manually activated?


User currently offlineGrbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

That is correct. There are a few other conditions that have to be met, but those are the main two.

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

What would those conditions be?

User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5046 times:

The MD-11 also has auto trim provided by LSAS when A/P is off and less than 2 lbs pressure on control yoke.

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting Grbld (Reply 5):
In the 727 and 737 (even the NG), this system will work against you if you deviate from a certain airspeed by increasing yoke pressure to make you go back to the original speed.

Here is my whole point...speed trim will trim the a/c whenever a trim need is sensed and will definitely not increase the control force on the yoke. On the 737, it typically comes in to play at low airspeeds and gross weights, and aft CG (missed approaches, but also the takeoff regime.)

cheers-


User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):

And another example in the Airbus SOP the PF always taxies the airplane but our company gave this job to Captain only since we have FO's with different experience levels on the type.So this reduces the chances of taxi incidents can be caused by an new FO on the type.

I know this is done a lot, and sometimes out of necessity when there's only a tiller on the port side. But, how does anyone ever expect to become proficient at taxiing? A new captain was a F/O yesterday, right?



Position and hold
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 23):
But, how does anyone ever expect to become proficient at taxiing?

You have about 9 sim rides, a pro chk in the sim and 25 hrs of I.O.E. It shouldn't be like you've never taxied a jet before.


25 Post contains images Starlionblue : Well, not to get into a gen_av discussion but the whole h&s vs p2p is a bit pre-chewed by the respective marketing departments Airbus saw an opportun
26 SlamClick : Your very question hints at a mindset more European than American. You assume that the "Authorities" (note Capital A) are the authorities. (small a)
27 Post contains images 2H4 : SlamClick, have I mentioned lately just how much I love having you back with us? 2H4
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