Wardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1157 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2689 times:
In the picture above, you can see the Ground Speed on the IRS screen. My question is, during a take-off roll, does that ground speed indicator have a "lag" to it during take-off roll?
In other words, when the take-off roll begins, do the numbers switch really really fast like this: 123456789 and so on.....or, since the IRS gatheres the ground speed information from a satellite, do the numbers switch or "lag" like this: 1 3 8 10 18 23 36 47 59
So, what I mean, I have this handheld GPS unit, it measures the Ground Speed very slowly when I accelerate...So, it would start its ground speed measurements like this...
1 and then after a few seconds later....25.....then a few seconds later....32...then a few seconds later.....44...then a few seconds later....55...and so on....
So, on an aircraft like in the picture where it shows "GS" does it measure the same way as my GPS unit that I have or, does it measure the speed (during take-off roll) more faster like this: 123456789 and so on????
Corey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2519 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2683 times:
Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter): since the IRS gatheres the ground speed information from a satellite
Well an IRS doesn't use satellites for information, which is a key advantage of the system. It uses internal acclerometers to judge changes in acceleration in the X and Y plane, this information is then calculated to give distance, speed, etc...
To answer your main question, I'm not sure how the numbers change as I've never flown anything that sophisticated
PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2670 times:
There is a "lag" on the G/S. The rate of the lag is directly proportional to the increase in speed, that is the faster the acceleration, the more the lag is.
The IRS don't use GPS. It computes the G/S based on the rate of acceleration. The display you see is the FMS computed G/S. That will use all the IRS units and the GPS to compute a speed.
Okie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2378 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2650 times:
Quoting Wardialer (Thread starter): do the numbers switch or "lag" like this: 1 3 8 10 18 23 36 47 59
The numbers lag in relationship to processor updates to the display depending on how many milliseconds the manufacturer chooses. Some display a snap shot, some with trend averaging from the previous number or numbers to buffer the characters displayed from jumping up and down between scans.
The problem is the human eye and brain can not process the information that computers operate. Anything changing over about 24 frames per second the eye and the brain can not see/process precisely. (go to a movie, you never see the screen go black between the 24 times per second that the new frame is projected, or your monitor either, your eyes and brain average the snap shot to show movement)
The display will be behind but not in the sense that you are referring. Only by milliseconds and how often the manufacture chooses to update the display. Now I can not answer for aircraft but in industrial applications anything updating to a human display more often than .25 seconds and usually .50 seconds just causes trouble for humans to process the information/numbers that are changing quickly while in the mean time all the of the rest of the processes/caluations are going at the processor scan speed.
Example: In a case that the information received from the accelerometer is 5kts/second from a standing start and your screen is updated four times per second then in that 1 second time frame then at least one sequential number will be left out on the display. (Simplified because we actually have 0,1,2,3,4,5 and a do not know at what point the update started)
I'm actually surprised to see that there is latency in the groundspeed readout, but then again, whenever I'm taxiing something, my concern as a mechanic isn't keeping an eye on groundspeed, I'm sure Phil is much more in tune with the intracacies of the flight deck. The accelerometers used in a/c navigation essentially know where they are, and they know when they've been moved from where they started. Picture sitting in your car while its stopped, you're holding up a string with a rubber ball on the end, its hanging completely vertical. Now step hard on the gas (watch for oncoming traffic and elderly ladies) and what happens? The ball/string reacts immediately, shoots backward, and the higher the rate of acceleration the farther the ball goes. Thats a basic accelerometer. IF there were a groundspeed readout attached to that ball and string, (you'd have an ungodly mess of wires in your car) it would react just as immediately. Perhaps theres a reason for the latency of the g/s readout that Philsquares refers to.
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15873 posts, RR: 66 Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2620 times:
Quoting Okie (Reply 4): The problem is the human eye and brain can not process the information that computers operate. Anything changing over about 24 frames per second the eye and the brain can not see/process precisely. (go to a movie, you never see the screen go black between the 24 times per second that the new frame is projected, or your monitor either, your eyes and brain average the snap shot to show movement)
Quoting David L (Reply 6): Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 5):
Perhaps theres a reason for the latency of the g/s readout that Philsquares refers to.
Anything to do with the processor speed in the FMS? I get the impression they're really slow compared to the average PC.
Sure. Most of those processors are four or five generations behind the bleeding edge. The best of 1990 if you will
As Okie says, information more often than 24 times a second is pretty useless anyway, with some exceptions:
- The eye/brain can actually "see" things that appears for only 1/100 of a second. Pretty useful for a fighter pilot when finding enemy planes, but not really on instruments.
- CRT computer monitors update about 70-85/second. Any slower and they appear to flicker. LCDs update down to 60 times a second but since LCD pixels are either on or off (as opposed to CRTs that are lit, then fade) there is no flicker.
I would also venture that aircraft ground speed doesn't need to be updated more than a few times a second since that is not how the information is used. Who needs the ground speed indicator to tell them the plane is accelerating?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
Wardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1157 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2616 times:
So, you guys are telling me that there is indeed a lag when the aircraft accelerates? right? So do the numbers skip during a take-off roll? Meaning that there is a skip in the numbering sequence?
I wish there was a video during a take-off roll that would just zoom right in on that FMS screen to see what happens...
So during a taxi, I would assume that the numbers are sequenced like this: 1, 2, 3, 4 knots....But, the faster the aircraft goes (like a take-off roll) the numbers would go like this: 1, 26, 39, 48, 66, 69, 77 knots...Am I right or wrong???
The slower the aircraft goes like a ground taxi....then the numbers or the measurements would not lag, instead, they would go in order like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
I forgot to mention this that I do have this Lufthansa flight in the cockpit video and there was shot of this FMS speed in flight and I did see the "GS" speed of 471 knots and then like after a few sconds it would hop from 471 to 472 then a slit second back to 471 then again after a slit second it hops again back to 472...
So my understanding would be this:
As the aircraft starts to settle its speed once reaching cruising altitiude, then there is no "lag"....the numbers then tend to change in seconds rather then a few seconds after...Or they tend to change in 1 knot increments.....
But, if the aircraft starts to make erratic or sudden speed changes (like a take-off roll) then yes, the speed can be measured in 5 knots or even 12 knots increments per maybe like 5 seconds or so...
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9219 posts, RR: 42 Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2611 times:
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7): As Okie says, information more often than 24 times a second is pretty useless anyway
Agreed and that would explain the display skipping numbers but not a general lag, e.g. once every 25 frames the speed would be correct rather than once every 25 frames you're shown what the ground speed was a second ago.
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7): I would also venture that aircraft ground speed doesn't need to be updated more than a few times a second since that is not how the information is used.
Of course... unless you're approaching the tire speed limit, in which case you've probably got a lot more to worry about.
It's not important but I'm still mildly intrigued.
PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2606 times:
Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 5): Perhaps there's a reason for the latency of the g/s readout that Philsquares refers to
A couple of things need to be clarified. First of all the G/S and wind vector, really don't mean much on take off roll. Sure when you are taxiing with the airspeed indicator at 0 it's a good way to monitor your taxi speed.
However, on the takeoff roll, what we really look is the airspeed tape as it comes up to speed. All the V speeds are based on indicated air speed not GND speed. Also ground speed is displayed from first movement. However it's not until the takeoff roll, anound 100 KIAS the wind vector will appear, assuming there is wind. So now you have the mathematical model of the IRS (3) providing their inputs to the FMC and now the wind component is then added to equation. Oh and don't for get the GPS has it's say, plus the nav-nav based updating. All those factors do take some time. At cruise it's not a big deal since the variations are small.
But realize the G/S display isn't really used for anything. With the possibility of an about you'd have the exact G/S the brakes were applied. Now you have a good estimate of cooling time.
Aogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 933 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 2581 times:
Wardialer, I'd say that you're probably mostly correct. Once again, in a car, if you've got a non-analog speed display, as you accelerate quickly, you're not going to see 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 all the way up to 70mph, you'll probably see 8-15-22-29-36....something like that......
The LH video where you see the g/s oscillating between single digits is most likely because the FMS is computing at 471.9 or thereabouts and its bouncing between that and 472.
While I'm not certain how your handheld GPS actually receives its data, I'm reasonably certain saying that it doesn't receive a constant flow of information that would allow it to update speed transparently to you. More than likely, it polls (sends out a request for data) and does that at a preset interval, maybe once every five seconds, maybe once very 1.5 seconds, I have no idea. But for a consumer grade GPS, the need for constantly updated info isn't there.
Okie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2378 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 2573 times:
Quoting Wardialer (Reply 8): As the aircraft starts to settle its speed once reaching cruising altitiude, then there is no "lag"....the numbers then tend to change in seconds rather then a few seconds after...Or they tend to change in 1 knot increments.....
Close, but you keep using the term "lag" which technically is incorrect but I think you have the idea. It is basically the amount of change between the previous update to the display at whatever rate/timeframe the manufacturer chooses to update the display again.(unfortunately we do not have that information on the updates)
Quoting Wardialer (Reply 8): The slower the aircraft goes like a ground taxi....then the numbers or the measurements would not lag, instead, they would go in order like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7...
There is that "lag" word again.
Here try this: I am taking buffets, wind changes, processor averaging out of the example using acceleration only.
If an airplane accelerates at 5 knots per second say to 250 knots and the display updates 5 times per second then you would see each and every number on the display up to 250 knots. If the display updates 2.5 times per second then you would see every other number. If the display updated once per second then you would see every 5 th number on the display.
Wardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1157 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2525 times:
OK my fault...I just did not know how to phrase this question...It even confused me to be honest.
So, I got your other last idea in the last post. Its more understandable. But the problem is, we do not know how long it updates..Thats the problem.
Giving me a rough guess here. What do you think the rate of update is on these FMS ground speed indicators?
Will it update 5 times per second, 2 time per second, or, it depands how fast the RATE-OF-ACCELERATION is...??
Thanks for the clear up on this...I just did not know how to phrase this question.
A/c train From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 501 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2501 times:
An IRS uses accelerometers to measure accelerations in different attitudes, it integrates the accleration once for distance and twice for speed, there are 2 integrations carried out in an IRS.
Jetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2452 posts, RR: 17 Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
Quoting Bphendri (Reply 16): Huh? Isn't ground speed very usefull for dead reckoning your position? Certianly you would not plot your course using TAS.
You have IRS and GPS feeding data to the FMS and you're going to use ground speed for dead reckoning
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
Quoting Bphendri (Reply 16): Huh? Isn't ground speed very usefull for dead reckoning your position? Certianly you would not plot your course using TAS.
If you're down to DR, you have much bigger problems than plotting your course to worry about!
That would mean you have no FMC (2 installed) no IRS (3 installed) no VOR/DME (installed) no FMS CDU (3 installed). Time to land if you ask me!!!
PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
Quoting Bphendri (Reply 16): Huh? Isn't ground speed very usefull for dead reckoning your position? Certianly you would not plot your course using TAS.
If you're down to DR, you have much bigger problems than plotting your course to worry about!
That would mean you have no FMC (2 installed) no IRS (3 installed) no VOR/DME (2 installed) no FMS CDU (3 installed). Time to land if you ask me!!!
Bphendri From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2435 times:
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19): That would mean you have no FMC (2 installed) no IRS (3 installed) no VOR/DME (2 installed) no FMS CDU (3 installed). Time to land if you ask me!!!
Thats right, and thats exactly what you would use your DR plot to attempt to do.
As my dad allways told me when teaching me to sail, The day your too lazy to follow time honored procedure is the day time honored procedure will bite you in the butt.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9219 posts, RR: 42 Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2434 times:
Quoting Bphendri (Reply 21): As my dad allways told me when teaching me to sail, The day your too lazy to follow time honored procedure is the day time honored procedure will bite you in the butt.
But you have a lot more time for DR when sailing. In any case, if the problem was serious enough to take out the IRS, GPS and radio navigation, I'd have thought the groundspeed indication would be lost, too.
Wardialer From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1157 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2427 times:
All I want to know is that the ground speed indicator in the picture above, does it update its speed similar to my handheld GPS meaning that does it update like every 15 seconds like my GPS, or...does it updaye much faster than that?
PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2426 times:
Quoting Bphendri (Reply 21): Thats right, and thats exactly what you would use your DR plot to attempt to do.
As my dad allways told me when teaching me to sail, The day your too lazy to follow time honored procedure is the day time honored procedure will bite you in the butt.
As a sailor, I can assure you it's very different in a 744 or any glass cockpit aircraft. There has never been a case, that I know of, where a modern day glass aircraft has lost it's ability to navigate using the IRS/FMC. You're talking about 5 completely separate systems. Personally, I'd be on the ground long before I had to rely on DR.
Not to burst your bubble, but that's called judgement.
25 David L: I suspect the problem may be that no-one watches it during take-off. During climb, cruise and approach, the speed may be changing too slowly to tell
26 Wardialer: I'll tell you what folks... Why dont we archive this post or thread and lets see if there are any "glass cockpit" A320 or Boeing 747-400 pilots who wi
27 ManuCH: This is just a guess: I think the GS indicator is always updated at a predefined rate (say, once every 3 seconds). It doesn't depend how quickly you'r
28 Wardialer: If it updates every 3 seconds...then would it skip increments like this? 3, 6, 9. 12, and so on...? The ONLY ONLY ONLY way to tell or answer this thre
29 ManuCH: Well, if the plane is in a constant acceleration (1 kt/s in this case), then yes. It will more probably be something like 3, 6, 12, 20, 30, 42, ... w
30 Wardialer: Like I said, have a pilot come on here and post back on what he saw...
31 Wardialer: I just thought of a great scenario by using a Calculator to explain on what I mean...I know its really really really silly....Just please read on what
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