D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, RR: 54 Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2862 times:
In the US, airlines often use a reverse thrust powerback routine on tail-engined planes like the DC-9/717. I recently heard this is illegal in Europe. Is that true?
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1184 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2761 times:
Powerbacks, at least for US carriers, have to be specifically authorized by the FAA.
Theyre authorized in the Operations Specifications; an Annex to the Air Carrier Certificate. They state which aircraft types operated by the airline can perform powerbacks, and at which airports and which gates. Most aircraft with tail mounted engines (727, DC9, MD80, etc) could do them theoretically, as long as the airline trained them.
Most aircraft with wing mounted engines dont perform them and cant, for the possibility of engine damage from ramp foreign object damage.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 30166 posts, RR: 61 Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 2): Most aircraft with tail mounted engines (727, DC9, MD80, etc) could do them theoretically, as long as the airline trained them.
Just remember to use Fwd thrust to Stop
Considering the Damage to the Engines v/s saving a few $.I would still think powerbacks would be expensive & maybe should be used as last resort.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1184 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2647 times:
Not that damaging. They only are supposed to use a little forward thrust to get the aircraft off of the flat spots on the tire, then idle reverse to get it going backwards; keep your feet off the brakes (for using them while going back could cause the tail to strike the ground); and it doesnt take that much time at all; nor fuel.
Notice also that those aircraft all have narrow-bypass (eg JT8D) engines. You wont even see a CRJ200 or -700 do powerbacks, because theyre prohibited per their Airplane Flight Manual.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1184 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2478 times:
Other powerback considerations is that the ramp cant be covered with loose FOD, contaminated, or stuff which could really damage an engine if ingested; the powerback controller (the ramper in the front) must wear eye protection for the engines kicking into reverse really do throw a lot of sand-type stuff about; it feels like being sandblasted.
Plus, like I said earlier, you cant go above idle reverse. I remember a long time ago when I was a ramper at MSP, an MD80 that tried with all her might to do a powerback; but the combination of the ramp angle (slanted towards the gate), heavy (it was a very heavy flight MSPSMF); it tried about 4-5 times to start the powerback - it did the forward thrust part of the procedure, but when the captain threw it into reverse, it just stayed there.
Captain called for a tug, and they got a standard pushback a few minutes later.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1184 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2428 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7): If there was a tug.It should have been used in first place
There wasnt at that gate - they had to get one from a few gates away.
Eastern Airlines here in the US started powerbacks a long time ago; back in the late 70s.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1981 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2382 times:
Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 9): Eastern Airlines here in the US started powerbacks a long time ago; back in the late 70s.
My family flew on an Eastern L-1011 out of MCO around 1976, I was 5 years old, according to my dad who is a pilot also the 1011 did a powerback out of the gate, which scared the shit out of me.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1184 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2347 times:
An L-1011 powerback??
Now keep in mind that they did have a very unique starting sound - that sounded like that they were going to bass-tone vibrate off the wing; but I cant see the wing-mounted engines doing a powerback. Maybe a center mounted engine alone powerback; but not the wing-mounteds - too close to the ground.
JBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4399 posts, RR: 23 Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2332 times:
Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 12): Now keep in mind that they did have a very unique starting sound - that sounded like that they were going to bass-tone vibrate off the wing; but I cant see the wing-mounted engines doing a powerback. Maybe a center mounted engine alone powerback; but not the wing-mounteds - too close to the ground.
I could swear hearing more than one story about Eastern doing this VERY occasionally, as well as on their 757's when first introduced...but not as SOP.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1981 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2325 times:
Now keep in mind that they did have a very unique starting sound - that sounded like that they were going to bass-tone vibrate off the wing; but I cant see the wing-mounted engines doing a powerback. Maybe a center mounted engine alone powerback; but not the wing-mounteds - too close to the ground.
I was too young to know obviously, so it could be mistaken. My father has retold the story many times and as a Vietnam era Huey pilot and a maintance test pilot on Hueys til this day he is wrong sometimes, but not often. It struck me as odd in the last several years because since joining A.net I've read how rare they are, especially in planes with wing mounted jets. Nevertheless, I do believe he knew what was going on.
AmericanAirFan From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 362 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1927 times:
When I flew American Airlines out of KAUS I got to experience it twice on their MD-80s and observe it a few times I remember hearing about power backs from airliners.net when I was 9 years old but when I observed it at the gate when my brothers flight did it I told my dad the plane was reversing under its own power and he didn't beleive me... now he does. Powerbacks are very exciting I have experienced it once at KSJC as well which is a rarity this was over 5 years ago since then I haven't seen it done at KAUS.
-AmericanAirFan
Also to answer the question (sorry for not doing that first) no its not a common thing but it is used a fair amount each year not all the time thats for sure.
Access-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1938 posts, RR: 22 Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1807 times:
I have flown on Ozark, TWA and NW DC9s and we powered back from the gates and I have watched the Northwest DC9s power back up in Detroit....and NO they just dont use simple idle thrust, they actually spool up...Matter factly, back in 1987 a NW DC9-30 did a powerback in Moline and they were parked next to a United 737-200 and there was a Kennel sitting on the ground near the 737's rear cargo door...the explosive sound from the obvious spool up of the engines from the DC9 scared the dog and it actually broke the kennel door and took off like a greyhound at the races...I had to alert soemone and they had to go get the owner to go find the dog which had run all the way down to the east end of the airfield almost a mile away.
So yes, they definatley use MORE than just IDLE thrust to back up.
And yes, Eastern did indeed start the power backs and also did powerback their 757s!! I remember the article in Air Transport World back in the early 80s showing an Eastern DC9-30 backing out of an ATL gate with the buckets deployed.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10022 posts, 
From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 15102 posts, 
From India, joined Jan 2001, 30166 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 2043 posts, 
From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 192 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8994 posts, 
From Finland, joined May 1999, 156 posts, 
Sponsor Message: 
Printer friendly format
