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Accelerated CFI And Multi Programs  
User currently offlineCWUPilot From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Hmmmmmmm.... Never thought I'd be posting this message.

After 3 years in the flight program at my school, the crap finally hit the fan and many of the CFI and multi engine students are being given the shaft by the flight school we contract with. (It is a very long story but the University has a contract with a shady business that owns the airplanes and hires the flight instructors). No more, we're tired of their high prices, contradictory rules and and poor instruction. I'll be graduating with a commercial pilot degree soon and will need to finish my CFI and multi engine ratings somewhere else.

Any suggestions?

I would like to do it fast, with a good company who is affordable and respected by future employers. I have about $8,000 left to do both ratings, so staying on budget would be nice too.

Thanks for your input!

-CWUPilot


"The worst day of flying still beats the best day of real work."
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

http://www.atpflightschool.com/

I've heard good things about their programs... So much so that I'll be getting my Multi-add on this summer

The multi is 4 days at 2800 and the CFI is 6000 and 14 days

The cost is right around your budget, and of course the times are very short


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

ATP is not cheap, and you don't learn anything but the bare minimum needed to pass the checkride. If you're ok with that and are willing to put forth the extra effort needed to actually be a proficient pilot, then go for it. Local FBOs are the best way to go though.


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2819 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

Quoting CWUPilot (Thread starter):
I would like to do it fast, with a good company who is affordable and respected by future employers.

I would highly recommend ATP flight school. ATP will deliver exactly what you described...fast, effecive, cost-effective and respected by airlines. Good luck!


User currently offlineXJRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2473 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

Keep with a FBO. Most school that offer any sort of fast track into more flying, won't give you quality education as ralgah said. Keep small and a little more time. Don't rush it.

XJR



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 2):
ATP is not cheap, and you don't learn anything but the bare minimum needed to pass the checkride. If you're ok with that and are willing to put forth the extra effort needed to actually be a proficient pilot, then go for it. Local FBOs are the best way to go though.

ATP won't teach you a think about instructing, all you will get is a shiny new CFI rating.

I'd recommend getting your CFIA and CFII at American Flyers. Its a marathon month, but you will walk out of there knowing your stuff and how to be a great instructor. Instruct for a couple of months then go to ATP for your MEI, you won't learn a thing, but you will be able to bring yourself up to speed.



GreatChecko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineBablackpilot From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

As a former manager of a flight school in the bay area and someone who is studying to be a CFI myself I'll let you in on a little something.
Regardless where you get your training, you as a CFI should study way more then what any program teaches you. Actually that goes for any license or rating you attempt to obtain.
The FAA sets minimums that are required for completion and CFIs don't teach you everything. They're somethings that you need to study on your own. Somethings come from experience and somethings you need learn from research.
I've talked to many CFIs that did the ATP program and they say all the time, they didn't teach me everything or they felt there training lacked in some sort of fashion.
They all said that one thing it did teach them was how to handle training like the airlines do it and that is with the firehose theory of training.
I'm not saying ATP is a bad place but for the cost it's not worth it if you want to become an effective CFI and a CFI that takes pride in teaching students. Sometimes the smaller FBO's give you that personal touch and you know you can't beat that. You also get a chance to be around the old timers and the knowledge they pass on to you is the best you'll get in the industry.
So, take some time and get to know your local FBO and do some flight training. Talk to those old guys that hang out at the airport and you'll see that with there knowledge and the training the FBO gives you, you'll be a better CFI and a better pilot. AND IT'S CHEAPER.........



My arrogance is only an issue between you and your self-esteem!"
User currently offlineTg 747-300 From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 1318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

According to the ATP web page whats included in the multi add on is 4 days and up to 8,5 flight hrs.

If you start thinking about this. I'm not going to claim that was anything more nor less than an avrage student when i did my multi rating. ( had about 230 hrs single and complex time when i started) Our program included 16 hrs of seminole time before the checkride. I felt that all of those hrs were needed to master the airplane. It is still something completelty different than a single engine.
So personally I think the promisse of getting a ME in 4 days is unrealistic.
But again, just my humble opinion.

tg 747-300



intentionally left blank
User currently offlineCWUPilot From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Thanks for the advice guys. On the CFI issue, I have completed part 141 ground already and a number of flights at the program here, so a flexible program in important too.

As for the multi, I have completed 141 ground and 8 hours in a frasca 242, no flights though.

-CWUPilot



"The worst day of flying still beats the best day of real work."
User currently offlineMikkel777 From Norway, joined Oct 2002, 370 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

I'd be a little careful with ATP. I know that pilots who got their ratings at that school is not considered at all for a CFI position at some other flight-schools. I never went to ATP, but i know that the hours they advertise with will not get you proficient at all as a MEI or on multi commercial. Getting through a checkride is not the same as becomming a good pilot or instructor.

User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1835 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

As a flight school owner I see many candidates from ATP with shiny new instructor licenses but with the lack of knowledge of endorsements. ATP is a license factory, it's not a place to learn anything. This is especially important for CFI license which is extremely important because you will be personally responsible for the safety in skies. (You have to have the guts and maturity to decline to sign off to a bad student that shows up with a brand new twin)

Get it at your local flight school. CFI is not expensive as far as the flight times are concerned. If you study really hard, you can have enough money saved to do your CFII which I highly recommend.

Good luck..



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Assuming you want to be an airline pilot, do your multi, and save the $$ that you would have used for a CFI and do an airline transition course and/or an RJ type rating if you can afford it.

AOPA has addressed this many times, with the problem being that a CFI is really the only way to break in to the industry. Most CFIs don't want to do that for a career, and so in some cases new students get less than top notch instruction. I have offerred this a couple of times on this forum, and what I get from a lot is how valuable the CFI rating is in terms of teaching, etc...But, if one want to be an airline pilot-

Nothing in a CFI curriculum specifically relates to flying airliners; other than being capable of flight, light GA a/c and airliners have little in common. Therefore, direct your training where you want to go, as opposed to letting the established process cost you time and seniority numbers. Some are going to say how much their judgement improved as a CFI...That is valid, but only to an extent, b/c the typical new hire FO at a regional is so far behind the a/c for the first few hours of sim/IOE that their CFI judgement never comes in to play. And there's a reason for that, too. They are experiencing such a steep learning curve in a turbine powered a/c flying a V1 cut in the sim that picking a farmer's field to land a C172 w/ the throttle at idle...never comes in to play. But don't believe me; I'm just a forum guy...


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

ATP will deliver their promise, usually. I did the CFI-I-/MEI program with them, however I had been flying about 5 years prior. If you have a decent amount of experience, I highly recommend them.

Going to CFI School and studying for your CFI will not teach you how to instruct. Instructing does. I walked in and out in 3 weeks with a Multi Comm, CFI/I/MEI. But I did not know shit (excuse me) about being a CFI. I studied checkride gouges. In fact, I hardly studied. The only thing that involved effort was doing maneuvers in a twin and from the Right seat for the first time. Everything else was just review.

The job at my flightschool taught me how to teach. ATP can't teach you how to deal when a student slams the brakes on landing almost tearing you off the runway, or how to ease an airplane down or into the air when it's 90 degrees and you're in a 152 that your student just yanked off the ground at 50kts on a touch and go with not much runway left! That's the stuff you just have to go out and do. The knowledge stuff, that's between you and the books.

I compensated for whatever I wasn't taught or expected to know by constantly thumbing through the FARAIM and other resources, including not being afraid to ask older more experienced CFIs questions.

You want a quick and dirty CFI? Go to ATP, you will get it. Just study hard before you get there. I think they're a good operation as they don't promise you more than you get. good luck


User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 12):
The job at my flightschool taught me how to teach.

The teaching I refer to is the ground portion, the explanations you give to your students that are much more valuable (and monetarily cheaper) than trying to get them to figure it out in the aircraft.

There is something to be said about understanding how to teach and how to best prepare your students for each flight and is why I would recommend not going to ATPs.

You could argue that if an instructor doesn't know what they are doing, for the first few weeks it is their students who will suffer and will end up for it in money and time.

GreatChecko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 13):
That 250 hour, CRJ type rated pilot, unless they are an exceptional pilot from the start, isn't going to get much help from that shiny rating and will have a hell of a time keeping things straight in their heads and having the confidence to fly that aircraft properly.

I forgot to add another key thought. I look forward to your response, thegreatgecko...

Most Naval Aviatiors go to the boat and get qualified with about 250 total hours, and do very well flying exceptionally high performance single/dual/multi seat aircraft. Now how is that possible??


User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 16):
Now how is that possible??

Because the vast majority of their training is done in a high performance airplane, and the training they recieve is extremely intense and very, very good.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting Futureualpilot (Reply 17):
Because the vast majority of their training is done in a high performance airplane, and the training they recieve is extremely intense and very, very good.

Excellent, Futureualpilot.

So USe that as the Model!! If that is the case, (it is, and Navy pilots aren't any "better" or smarter than the rest of the pilot population), and its primarily an equipment and training issue, then why would one not want to be in a high perfromance airplane like an airliner (RJ? 737, whatever), with an associated level of training, from the onset?

Asian airlines are doing pretty much the same thing, BTW - teaching ab initio in Beechjets and Lears. If you can't afford that, do what you can to approximate it. THAT is my point.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

An airline will teach you everything you need to know when they hire you. Why spend $10k on a type rating you can't use at 250 hours and likely won't get you hired when you can spend 5 or so and get a CFI, get a job, and get paid while building valuable PIC time. A monkey can learn flows, hell, they went into space before us. What you gain by being a CFI is essential critical thinking skills and the ability to manage the situation. You shouldn't be learning this with 50 people behind you at FL350. Those great 121 operations that hire with 250 hours are so great that people typically bail before upgrade making a lateral move to another regional. They have higher debt and their senority number is no higher than the CFI sitting in class next to them that choose to possibly get paid better as a CFI.

Most naval aviators spend hundreds of hours in simulators and meet very rigid standards before they're allowed near a carrier. Their experience goes far beyond what they've logged due to the rigid training. If you follow this model in the civilian world the cost of flight training would make it unobtainable.

I'd take a look at the accident rates of the Pacific Rim countries versus ours before you start talking about how great their ab-intio programs are. The newbies are typically sitting in the right seat over the ocean with more experienced crews taking over for critical phases of flight.



DMI
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3108 times:

Why is it the guys that put "CFI" on their profile (the young ones) who are obviously not in the airlines as a flight officer, seem to know it all? Nice job, but everyone has a CFI...

A CFI/II/multi rating is a solid accomplishment. It's just that there may be a better way to the airlines. If one disagrees, fine. But it is annoying when people that clearly have no airline experience know it all.


User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 16):

Most Naval Aviatiors go to the boat and get qualified with about 250 total hours, and do very well flying exceptionally high performance single/dual/multi seat aircraft. Now how is that possible??


It has to do with the quality of their training. The navy provides a level of training and an intensity level that cannot be matched by civilian flight schools. Also, these are people who have met numerous, rigorous selection exams, so they have the ability to do it.

Unlike some people on this board, I have actually seen the broad spectrum of people that go through flight training, there are some who are exceptional pilots at 250 hours, most, like myself, need the additional time and experience to function as a truly safe pilot.

Oh, I forgot, I'm young I can't possibly think I know what I'm doing, what am I thinking, don't listen to me. My ego isn't overblown yet and I don't seem to have an unnatural need to let everyone know I'm better than everyone else. My apologies in advance.

GreatChecko

[Edited 2006-05-15 08:41:13]


"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 21):
But it is annoying when people that clearly have no airline experience know it all.


Last I checked my "identical" resume lists two Part 121 airlines. Oh sorry, forgot to check my ID, still too young to comment. I'll go back to playing with my tinker toys. sarcastic 

GreatChecko

[Edited 2006-05-15 09:05:03]

[Edited 2006-05-15 09:08:07]


"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Essential,

I know exactly how 121 ops work as I've been around them for 7 years now. I also know how training works. You're right, your first experience in IOE is with pax in the back. However, indoc, systems, and sim time prepare you for that. Maybe you switched types. That means you had difference training. Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about. So no, they don't have experience in the plane before pax, but they already know that airplane on a detailed level.

You seem to be big on PFT, which leads me to believe you work for one of the academies. You're also in the minority here. Read the posts above and you'll see that there isn't a lot of respect for the pay-for-job types. I've had the opportunity to talk to a number of pilots from various backgrounds. 135, 121, 91, etc and there is a common bond. They don't like people that think they deserve something because they dumped 10k into a type rating with 200 hours. You obviously have your head in the sand or are drinking the kool-aid from somewhere because you have no idea what is valued in this industry. Hours are only one part of the equation, and lateral moves are pretty useless when you consider that they'll put you right back at the bottom again. I'd rather go to good situation the first time around, and without a bunch of debt from buying training I'll get while paid by the airline. Second, I'll have a faster upgrade to a major because I'll already have a huge PIC advantage. Senority doesn't mean shit if there's nowhere to go with that number. There isn't just one that disagrees with you, there are many.

When was the last time you looked at type rating training? Places like Higher Power and Aeroservice are the exception, and from what I understand you get what you pay for. Lear and Citation types can be had on the "cheap" side, if you call 6 grand cheap. Even a twin cessna course at flight safety, which is required (by most insurance companies) costs upwards of $5000 the first time around. Reccurent will only set you back about half that.

I know it's easy to hide behind false credentials on the internet, your boisterous tone leads me to believe that you are in that boat. Your idea of this industry seems to be directly from those glossy ads in "Flying" that promise you a great career as an airline pilot if you give a company thousands of dollars in exchange for learning how to program an FMS and the promise of an interview if their partner airline needs pilots. Personal attacks only lower yourself, but then again questioning integrety on an anonymous fourm is pretty easy when you don't have to answer. As for me, I'll stick with my lowly CFI job knowing that the airlines I want to work for value that time above and beyond the PFT types.



DMI
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 24):
I know exactly how 121 ops work as I've been around them for 7 years now.

Clearly you don't; if you want to be a pilot and are working for an airline but are not hired yet.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 24):
You're also in the minority here.

SO?

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 24):
Second, I'll have a faster upgrade to a major because I'll already have a huge PIC advantage.

Do you understand the fact that you WILL NOT be in a position to upgrade UNTIL you get hired? Piston/CFI PIC really means nothing, b/c SIC in 121 counts toward getting an ATP if you have less than 1500 hrs.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 24):
I know it's easy to hide behind false credentials on the internet, your boisterous tone leads me to believe that you are in that boat

Someone like me provides another viewpoint. As I've told others, you do what is right for you. I haven't provided Any credentials, so how can any of them be false? Please explain that comment.

My thoughts struck a nerve with you for some reason, and apparrently as a person who is proud of their CFI background took it personally. That is your problem. Its interessting to get lectures on the airline industry, and hiring, from someone who hasn't been there or done that.

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 22):
It has to do with the quality of their training. The navy provides a level of training and an intensity level that cannot be matched by civilian flight schools. Also, these are people who have met numerous, rigorous selection exams, so they have the ability to do it.

Exactly. If one can admit that, and one chooses not to try to match that level of training, then that is your choice.

Since you both clearly want to remain in the CFI pipeline, by all means do that. I have offerred my opinion, and you have refuted everything and took it personally. That's not my problem; good luck.


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 25):

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 24):
Second, I'll have a faster upgrade to a major because I'll already have a huge PIC advantage.

Do you understand the fact that you WILL NOT be in a position to upgrade UNTIL you get hired? Piston/CFI PIC really means nothing, b/c SIC in 121 counts toward getting an ATP if you have less than 1500 hrs.

The more PIC you have before you get to a regional or wherever else you fly, the less PIC you need to garner at said place in order to qualify for a major/legacy/large carrier. Does that clear up what Pilotpip very clearly wrote?


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Go to Mesa pilot development. All you need is a commercial and 15K to buy your Mesa job. If you don't like that, may I suggest the ATP Airline Transition program where all you need is 350hours and 25K to buy a job at the airline partners. Are you feeling sick already? There is no reason not to go through the longer traditional way to the airlines especially if you're a young guy. Also you will feel much better and have more respect from yourself and fellow pilots when you get to that flying job knowing that you didn't get in with only 500 hours. Pay for Training guys are not respeced by other pilots, do you want to be on the no respect end by going through accelertated training?

25 EssentialPowr : More advice from a college student to another college student. Big comment here, though...most of the people hired at SWA, Jetblue, CAL...as we speak
26 Woodreau : Not really, none of that PIC (unless it's turbine PIC) counts towards anything other than your ATP. - You are closer to getting the ATP with the PIC
27 AirWillie6475 : I wonder how sick Expressjet,AmericanEagle,PSA,Pinnacle pax would become when they find that one the pilots in charge for their lives has about 500 h
28 AirWillie6475 : Actually I know of some one who knows the assistant chief pilot of a major LCC airline, he still couldn't get in even with the recomendation of the a
29 AirWillie6475 : PFT was designed for old guys who wanted a second career at the airlines but were too old to go through the longer CFI way. Now it's being utilised by
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