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What If The Nose Gear Collapsed On Takeoff?  
User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

These days we've seen D-ABTK with its nosewhweel broken.
I know that sometimes there have been landings with the nosewheel damaged, but what would happen if it collapsed on takeoff roll?

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1559 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
but what would happen if it collapsed on takeoff roll?

One thing is for sure that it won't be called the take off roll any more  Smile .The rest will be pretty much the same as you have seen on the nose gear collapse on landing.



Widen your world
User currently offlineDizzy8 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4456 times:

...you'd make an "unscheduled stop." If it happened at or past Vr, you could probably make an OK takeoff and then flitter around a while until you returned to make a landing worthy of CNN broadcast.

User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

Yes!!! It is of the utmost importance that the flight crew get the plane off the ground, and circle for at LEAST an 90 minutes which will allow ALL of the TV networks to get ahold of their "experts" to hypothesize about the outcome of the landing.  Wink

User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3149 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4298 times:

Would you really have a "nose gear collapse" past Vr? I don't think you'd have that until landing if the nose gear failed...

I had a gear issue in a 172RG yesterday and there was no waiting around. As soon as I knew all three were down (or at least was pretty sure it was) I put it on the runway.



DMI
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4294 times:

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
These days we've seen D-ABTK with its nosewhweel broken.
I know that sometimes there have been landings with the nosewheel damaged, but what would happen if it collapsed on takeoff roll?

No problem, it just takes a lot more power to taxi!!!

On the 744, IIRC all the nose gear incidents have involved MX. The landing gear system on the 747 family is extremely reliable and has been quite trouble free.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4282 times:

My opinions:

Nosegear collapse past Vr - continue and come back around for landing

Nosegear collapse before Vr - let friction do its thing and call it a day

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
Would you really have a "nose gear collapse" past Vr? I don't think you'd have that until landing if the nose gear failed...

Well past Vr you'd be pitching up by then surely so it should't collapse, but it may stay extended (but with no locking system, so it will collapse on landing).

My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17002 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):

My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

Dodging the question, but the gear is unlikely to collapse at these speeds if it didn't collaps earlier. There's much less pressure on it than during taxi due to lift.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):
My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

At V1 there should be enough air flowing over the elevators to keep the nose off the ground. However, the effectiveness of the elevators would obviously decrease as the aircraft slowed down, and the force of the breaks would work against keeping the nose up (the brakes are below the center of gravity, and thus when they slow down the rest of the plane wants to pitch down). It would be possible to prevent the nose from slamming down, but it would still hit pretty firmly.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1755 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4141 times:
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So, here's a question ... your gear collapses prior to rotation (let's say there's a pothole, or something similar, that knocks the nosegear out) ...

1) is there enough lift to prevent the nose from slamming down due to gravity?

2) your thrust (at least until the crew can pull the power off) is now pointed at a DOWN angle ... and could effectively be plowing the nose INTO the ground ...

With the change in angle from a dropped nose, is it even still possible to achieve a takeoff, even assuming you can overcome the friction from pushing the nose along the ground?

All theorizing aside, I can't imagine 1) or 2) being a very good day ...

- litz


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3149 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

V1 is usually before or at Vr, so assuming it happened right there, which means you have not rotated yet you'd be slamming into the ground.

I guess I was just getting into semantics with my first post  Smile



DMI
User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Quoting Litz (Reply 10):
is there enough lift to prevent the nose from slamming down due to gravity?

I'm deeply sure that proper answer for this question is:
It depends.

 Smile

After all, Vr isn't the absolute minimum needed for rotation, there must be quite a bit of safety margin.


User currently offlineRendezvous From New Zealand, joined May 2001, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

V1 is always at or before VR, not just usually! Not much point having a decision speed if the plane is already half off the ground.

Now about the nose gear. The centre of gravity of the plane is pretty close to the main landing gear. Not all that much speed is required for the elvators to be effective. I've seen some landings where the pilots holds the nose off for a very long time, proving that the elevators are effective down to fairly low speeds. So if you can keep the nose off, it would most likely be safer to take off and sort out your problems, rather than go off the end of the runway and into the water.

If you're in the air, you've got enough fuel on board for the entire trip, so in most cases you've got a fair amount of time to sort out what's going on - fly by's, nose gear up landing procedures etc.


User currently offlineTWAL1011727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 7):
My question is that if the nosegear collapsed at V1 could a quick thinking crew find a way to keep the fuse just inches off the runway by use of elevator/trim or would the nose ultimatly slam down almost instantly?

On a 20,000 ft runway that might not be a problem..but at LGAs 7000 ft runways you're already 4-5000 ft down it before V1/VR.....screw being gentle..jam on the binders and stop ASAP...better letting the airplane give its life than the 140+ pax

KD MLB


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6769 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

So, here's a question ... your gear collapses prior to rotation (let's say there's a pothole, or something similar, that knocks the nosegear out) ...

Try goats or dogs... Yes it can happened... luckily it has only happened on landings... on take offs, they're either deaf or are playing gauntlet with an aircraft... LOL

V1 = GO/No Go decision... to allow for a stop or safe acceleration to airborne speeds.

Now, if a No Go, then you'll have extra drag... Nosedown = at V1 speeds the wing will push the weight on the mainwheels and the nose (albeit not as bad as the wheels)... Then your speedbrakes/ground spoilers will deploy at a sharper angle than usual to the airflow, creating more than normal drag... Then, no nosewheel means there is more surface resistance too...

So, structural integrity aside, put the nose down and stop like mad.

However, if you've past V1, then maybe its better to continue if you can keep the nose off the ground and stabilize without loosing too much distance...

Personally, I'd stop unless I'm at Vr...

Just my unlicensed 10 cents...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
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