Msllsmith From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 396 posts, RR: 10 Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2822 times:
Say there's a B757 with 6(?) doors...... but the plane is configured for only 22 passengers.....hypothetically speaking, they are spread evenly throughout the cabin.
How many flight attendants are required to fly?
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2815 times:
I don't have an up to date copy of 121 but I'm pretty sure under these circumstances you'd still need one for each exit. Anyone have better info?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Nonfirm From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 434 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2775 times:
You can check far 121.391 it has all of the details.
Grbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2726 times:
You need one FA. The rule is connected to the amount of seats. You need one for every 50 seats with an exemption of 19 or less. So a regional airliner with 19 seats needs no FAs (that's why they made the Beech 1900 carry 19 seats, no 'expensive' FA required) but from 20 to 50 seats, you need one.
We used to fly 8-door 757s with 219 seats with 6 FAs but reduced it to the flight safety minimum of 5 after 9/11 to cut costs and after simplifying the in-flight offerings.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2710 times:
Quoting Grbld (Reply 3): So a regional airliner with 19 seats needs no FAs (that's why they made the Beech 1900 carry 19 seats, no 'expensive' FA required) but from 20 to 50 seats, you need one.
Someway always to beat the system.What about Emergencies,wouldn't a FA be handy leave alone Refreshments.
regds
MEL
Msllsmith From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 396 posts, RR: 10 Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2704 times:
Quoting Fokker Lover (Reply 4): I believe that most pilots need to pay alimony to two or three.
I don't know who you are, Masked Man, but I think you don't get the bronze ring....... an interesting idea about the number of F/As .... re: Pilots (some, but very few..... a lot of fantasy there on the part of the folks left on the tarmac) paying alimony to fa's.
Bottom line.... I'm thinking that regardless of the # of passengers...... there has to be a F/A for each door..... (kudos, Mr. Click)
If the plane where configured for 200 pax, (the a/c I'm describing is not) but all 22 sat at the front of the a/c...... then, at the Captains discretion, the other F/As could sleep or read books or etc. , but, if not, all doors would have to be covered.
However...... I'm not finding a schematic of a 757...... ???????...... and I'm thinking...... 4 doors (?) and ? (?) overwing exits?
But, I'm wondering if anyone has the real answer?
(Obviously, I'm having a slow weekend.... )
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15872 posts, RR: 66 Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2664 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5): Quoting Grbld (Reply 3):
So a regional airliner with 19 seats needs no FAs (that's why they made the Beech 1900 carry 19 seats, no 'expensive' FA required) but from 20 to 50 seats, you need one.
Someway always to beat the system.What about Emergencies,wouldn't a FA be handy leave alone Refreshments.
In an emergency the pilots can practically reach out and touch the 1L door on the Beech, so it's hardly a problem.
And refreshments? On a Beech 1900 I have never experienced this.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2656 times:
Quoting Grbld (Reply 3): You need one FA. The rule is connected to the amount of seats.
Since the question was asked from the US and you are posting from another country perhaps you should mention the rules you are citing.
* * *
US FARs require one for each fifty passenger seats, including any fraction of fifty. (So 100 would require 2 and 101 would require 3) However, in the older version of Part 121.391 that I have it also makes reference to the number required to perform the emergency evacuation drill required under 121.291 which in turn references Appendix D. This, if I remember it right, demanded that you be able to evacuate a full airplane in 90 seconds with half the exits blocked.
Now one flight attendant could probably evac 22 passengers through 1L and 1R simultaneously and still have time to say "B-bye! Thanks for flying with us." but I doubt that one flight attendant could manage all the tasks and demonstrations required during this demo.
The legal answer may in fact turn out to be one flight attendant but I seriously doubt that you could find an FAA POI to sign off on it.
[Edited 2006-06-11 16:16:41]
[Edited 2006-06-11 16:17:39]
[Edited 2006-06-11 16:18:32]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Bri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2643 times:
A few times a year, I fly UA to/from ONT-LAX on an EMB-120. It's about a 15-minute flight, not even a chance to turn on electronic devices, but there's always a F/A who stays buckled up the whole time. There's never a F/A on the Beech 1900 I take from BOS-SYR. This anecdotal evidence seems to lend some credibility to the number-of-seats theory, since there's 19 seats and 4 exits on the Beech but no F/A for a 1.5 hour flight, but 4 exits and 30 seats on the Brasilia, with a (usually good-looking, thank you Skywest) F/A to match.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2635 times:
It is not a theory. It is right there in the regulations.
19 seats - no flight attendant.
20 to 50 seats - one flight attendant
one for every fifty seats or fraction of fifty (since you can't have a fraction of a flight attendant)
The question here was whether the airplane in question would require more flight attendants (1) that the number of seats (22) installed would dictate.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Msllsmith From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 396 posts, RR: 10 Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2619 times:
Thank you SlamClick for doing my homework for me...... I was too lazy to pull out my FARs.
Probably a CSI (Cabin Safety Inspector*) could put an end to this discussion immediately.
It's too bad it's Sunday and I can't russel** one up.
(*an archaic term, ** it's also too bad I can't spell..... anyone know how to spell russel as in "I russel passengers for my living."?)
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
Bri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2611 times:
I think you're looking for rustle, as in cattle rustlers.
Now you've had two assignments done, free of charge.
Msllsmith From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 396 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2594 times:
Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 12): think you're looking for rustle, as in cattle rustlers.
Now you've had two assignments done, free of charge.
Thank you. Spelling was never my greatest strength.
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
CALPilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 995 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2567 times:
The answer to this question is one, in the US it is based on number of seats, period.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2561 times:
Quoting CALPilot (Reply 14): The answer to this question is one, in the US it is based on number of seats, period.
Not exactly true. The number of flight attendants may not be fewer than those required to conduct the evac demonstration under 121 Appendix D. References FAR 121.391, 121.291 and 121 Appendix D.
But that has already been said.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8227 posts, RR: 28 Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2545 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 6): However...... I'm not finding a schematic of a 757...... ???????...... and I'm thinking...... 4 doors (?) and ? (?) overwing exits?
Just for your info, passenger 757-200s have two configurations:
1.) 6 doors and 4 overwing exits
2.) 8 doors.
757-300s have 8 doors and 4 overwing exits.
Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 9): A few times a year, I fly UA to/from ONT-LAX on an EMB-120.
Not to get off-topic (too late), but anyone have any idea how high they climb on that flight? Assuming you're taking off on one of the 25s from ONT, and landing on one of the 24s or 25s at LAX, I'd guess you go up to around 7,000 feet and then come right back down. In this sort of situation (where you're basically climbing right into the approach to LAX), is your takeoff slot based on when SoCal Approach can fit you in?
~Vik
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
Bri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2530 times:
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 16): Not to get off-topic (too late), but anyone have any idea how high they climb on that flight? Assuming you're taking off on one of the 25s from ONT, and landing on one of the 24s or 25s at LAX, I'd guess you go up to around 7,000 feet and then come right back down. In this sort of situation (where you're basically climbing right into the approach to LAX), is your takeoff slot based on when SoCal Approach can fit you in?
With the cockpit doors on the Brasilia, I can't personally be sure. I actually fly more often LAX-ONT than the other way, and we take off with all the other traffic, usually on 25R, but I've never waited long, we just sort of get in line. We fly out over the ocean, climb a little, then head towards ONT and fly an extended pattern (there's never much traffic at ONT, even with the one runway under construction.) It's hard to guess at altitudes from the cabin, so I won't even try. I've never personally flown an aircraft in the SoCal area, so I can't comment much further.
Grbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2475 times:
SamClick, turn on your lawyer-mode and re-read FAR Part 121.391. It says:
- You need 1 FA per 50 passenger seats (19 or less exempted)
- IF during entry into service, an operator (certificate holder) uses MORE flight attendants than required by the seating requirement, during EVAC demonstration, he is bound to that number. Only then! As a result, if that operator uses the same plane with fewer seats, you still need the number of additional FA's that were on top of the seat requirements.
So only if you required 5 according to the seats, and you used 6 during taking into service of that aircraft type for evac demonstration, you'll need those 6 always. Or, if you use the same plane with 100 seats, you need min required (=2) plus the one additional you used during evac demo, making 3 the required number of FAs on board.
I was involved in a 48-seat BBJ operation as well, and all you need is 1 FA. That there are more because of service, is a different story. During normal service, the same 737-700 fuselage requires 3 FAs.
Bottom line, if you have 22 seats in a 757 and you can demonstrate that you can get all those 22 folks out in 90 seconds with 1 FA, you're legal.
I have flown under US spec as well, and I wonder why looking at the flag near my name always raises scepticism. The JAA rules I fly under now (757 and 737) are virtually a carbon copy of the FARs.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2443 times:
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2431 times:
Now that we have my name right, let us examine what I said vs what you said:
Quoting Grbld (Reply 18): - IF during entry into service, an operator (certificate holder) uses MORE flight attendants than required by the seating requirement, during EVAC demonstration, he is bound to that number.
Okay, sort of like:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15): The number of flight attendants may not be fewer than those required to conduct the evac demonstration under 121 Appendix D.
Quoting Grbld (Reply 18): Bottom line, IF you have 22 seats in a 757 AND you can demonstrate that you can get all those 22 folks out in 90 seconds with 1 FA, [then]you're legal.
Bolding and [bracketed word] mine.
Nothing I said in any post conflicts with this.
Quoting Grbld (Reply 18): The JAA rules I fly under now (757 and 737) are virtually a carbon copy of the FARs.
Since the question was posted from the US it is only courteous to make it clear that a reply is based on US assumptions.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
Grbld From Netherlands, joined Dec 2005, 353 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2403 times:
Aye, indeed you did say so SlamClick. Please accept my apologies!
And for the record, I was basing my answer on US assumptions. I don't feel the need to write this just because I have a Dutch flag beside my name. If I wanted to elaborate on the flight regs in Tonga, I would specifically state so.
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15872 posts, RR: 66 Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2390 times:
Quoting Grbld (Reply 21): If I wanted to elaborate on the flight regs in Tonga, I would specifically state so.
Msllsmith From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 396 posts, RR: 10 Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2367 times:
I'm still thinking 1 FA for every door.... or close to it.
I think that even if the 1fa to 50 passengers is the rule (which it is) that in a larger a/c it will still never be certified that way..... for this reason; the feds will never let them get away with it.
My examples are never as good or clear as Mr. Click's are but I'll give it a try. Say all 22 (not my example in my initial thread topic) sat in zone A. So the airline asks to have it certified for 1 FA..... assuming (hoping) that the certification will be based on evacuations being done from the front doors...... the feds, being practical people will set up a scenario where in fact, the only "usable" doors are the rear doors (we're thinking the original a/c in the thread, 757)...... even in the most ideal conditions, 1 fa could not run to the aft of the a/c and evacuate all passengers in the required time.....
The reason, in my thinking, is that no emergency is ever "easy, or clean"..... and the feds are going to always think in worst case scenario.
I'm a very simple type, but I have a little experience and a good imagination.
I'm fascinated that this has generated so much thought. And, I think it's quite appropriate. I believe that in aviation we sometimes forget the back end of the plane....meaning cabin as opposed to the flight deck.
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 23): I'm still thinking 1 FA for every door.... or close to it.
The regs have been explained pretty well, and it is nothing to do with number of doors.
One way of looking at the Part 121 regs, is that this is a minimum requirement. It may require more depending on certification (as explained also).
If you could demonstrate evacuation of those 22 pax with 1 F/A, then that is all that is required by FAA regs.
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 16): Assuming you're taking off on one of the 25s from ONT, and landing on one of the 24s or 25s at LAX, I'd guess you go up to around 7,000 feet and then come right back down.
Actually these are flight planned for only 4,000 feet.
Jimbo
[Edited 2006-06-14 05:55:03]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
25 SlamClick: I never really explained this well, but here is what I was thinking. Obviously one flight attendant could get 22 peeps out one door in 90 seconds. Bu
26 Bond007: Yes, agreed, but remember we're talking about 22 pax in a large aircraft, spread out with plenty of room presumably. The chances of something blockin
27 Mandala499: If it's one for each door, then how do some carriers get away with 3 F/As on a 732? It's 1 FA for 20-50 pax, then 1 F/A for every 50 pax thereafter. N
28 WNCrew: For the LUV : )!!! It's NOT 1 FA per each door! It is 1 FA per 50 pax seats!!!! AGAIN: 1-19 seats (NONE) 19-50 seats (1 - FA ) 50-100 seats (2 - FA's)
29 Eos757: I work for Eos which uses a 48-seat 757. Similar, but not exactly the example used by the OP. Yes, FARs talk about one FA for each 50 seats or fractio
30 FlyMatt2Bermud: Kudo's to any flight attendants reading this! Your responsiblity is highly under appreciated because there are so few airline/corporate accidents for
31 Eos757: FlyMatt: Your profile/pix suggest that you are a pilot flying US-registered Challengers and Globals. Is this correct? I'm confused... Anyway, in the U
32 CSMUK: An odd question BUT I am a CSM for British Airways and I would like to ask you guys as passengers, how many cabin crew do you like to see? More or les
33 HAWK21M: Its always based on No of Seats not Pax. regds MEL
34 FlyMatt2Bermud: Quoting Eos757 (Reply 31): Are you sure in your 757 example, the FA was not talking about a reduction in the number of SEATS? The flights I was on wit
35 Amtrosie: You all are assuming part 121 regs. Part 135 and 91 are different. It could be thqat anything with more than 9 pax require a F/A.
36 Bond007: Well, generally, the regulations get stricter as you go from 91, 135, 121 ... not more lenient. In fact, the F/A requirements are in 91.533, so valid
37 L-188: That is what I remember and it is a test question on the FAA Dispatcher written. I don't buy that. I say that because I used to work for two differen
38 WNCrew: Yes but that's in a combi/QC, with a movable smoke barrier, which BTW will never be approved again by the FAA. Those in service by AS for instance ar
39 WILCO737: I just need one F/A: My Girlfriend WILCO737
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