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A380 Electrical Harnesses  
User currently offlineMarkboston From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 74 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12916 times:

I have been reading that installation of "electrical harnesses" is delaying production of the A380.

Can someone explain what an electrical harness is?

Is this problem considered to be a manufacturing/assembly problem or a design problem?

86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12928 times:

I'm sure a knowledgeable someone will jump in soon with a detailed description of the situation facing the 380, but I can tell you that wiring harnesses are simply bundles of wires that have to be routed throughout the airframe and engine to handle the electric and electronic loads of systems and components. I believe I read that the 380 has about 200 MILES of wiring, hence difficulties....

User currently offlineAvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12873 times:

I have spoken to a few people who have worked as contractors on the A380 and they have mentioned that they had lots of problems with wiring turning up from suppliers with very bad connections on the crimped on them.

Also they have said that some of the people working there have no aircraft experience and have no idea about aircraft wiring. For example they had one person who put a red pin into a blue hole of a plug and therefore as soon as it was connected the pin pushed out etc etc.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12854 times:

Quoting Markboston (Thread starter):
Can someone explain what an electrical harness is?

Look under the hood (bonnet) of your car. See the wires that are all taped together running all over the place. Those are wire harnesses. Now, assume a car that is 250 feet long and 20 feet wide and you may understand why they are having trouble getting everything sorted out.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12816 times:

There isn't just one wire harness, there are hundreds, maybe thousands on an aircraft the size of the A380.

Harnesses look simply but can be incredibly complex. Some wire harnesses may be only a few wires or the may be made up of hundred of wires. Each wire must be labeled with its wire number and part number.

A single harness may have several other harnesses that branch off and form there own 'main' harness for that particular location.

On top of all the wiring and connectors each wire must be reflected in the wiring diagram/wire list. The wiring diagram will show the wires as connected in relation to other wires in the system. The wire list will have the wire, bundle number and its terminations.

Like I said, they can be rather complex.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 12775 times:

Why wasn't the problem known when they built the first A380's? It seems that the first few planes were assembled OK and then something went to heck after that.

User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 12713 times:

We don't KNOW that they were OK. We know that the aircraft flew and went through testing. We don't know anything about the gripes that were developed during the flights.

Now, let's take the leap: if the problems with the systems were known, and were substantial, but under reported by Airbus; what is their responsibility or liability to their customers and shareholders?

At what point should Airbus report problems with the test aircraft? Remember, a wire harness problem does not necessarily mean a chapter 24 (electrical) problem. Any chapter can be effected. How long and how may problems did it take to narrow it down to wiring through-out the aircraft, if that's the problem?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12705 times:

A Collection/Bunch/Group of Electrical Wires.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineESGG From Sweden, joined Feb 2006, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 12693 times:

I am working in the automotive industry an when designing a new model, the car is first built in an 3D-cad program. I.E. everything is mounted as it would be in the real word, except that it is made in a computer. That test reveals a lot of collisions between different structural elements and piping, cable harnesses etc. I suppose this is done also with a complex thing as an airplane. But remember that an airplane is far far more complex than a car.

On the other hand, a PTO (pre series try out) is often built manually and the problems solved as they appear. The final product that later will be built, has always a number of solutions that differ from the PTO.
It is a very common problem that the solution on a problem is clear, but the subcontractor that is delivering the actual component fails to meet the specifications. As earlier mentioned:

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 2):
Also they have said that some of the people working there have no aircraft experience and have no idea about aircraft wiring.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5453 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12674 times:

Quoting AvionicMech (Reply 2):
Also they have said that some of the people working there have no aircraft experience and have no idea about aircraft wiring.

The people building up the harnesses don't have to know anything about aircraft. They have to know how to follow the specs and they have to know wiring. Mistakes coming out of a vendor are a QC/QA issue.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 12636 times:

Quoting Markboston (Thread starter):
I have been reading that installation of "electrical harnesses" is delaying production of the A380.

well i heard it wasnt so much the installing of the wires.....but the discovery of a few looms within the aircraft that have been cut.....possibly sabotaged!


User currently offline3DPlanes From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12581 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 10):
well i heard it wasnt so much the installing of the wires.....but the discovery of a few looms within the aircraft that have been cut.....possibly sabotaged!

But that wouldn't explain why they've had to delay their production ramp up so much... Instead of 24 planes next year, it's down to 9 (or numbers similar to those). A cut harness or two (or even a bunch) shouldn't cause that kind of an impact.

An interesting, though non-technical, theory I've read about involves dropping the stock prices in order to devalue the buy out of BAe. Then, once that's done, announce that a "fix" has been developed at Farnborough. Seems awfully risky though, especially given their apparent troubles with the A350. I am curious what kind of problem - just coming to light now, only a few months before the first delivery - would cause such a major impact on production numbers?

I'm guessing that some sort of problem was found, one possible fix (possibly only one) was started on, and now at a very late stage found not to work, with no alternative solution...

-3DPlanes



"Simplicate and add lightness." - Ed Heinemann
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12559 times:

Quoting 3DPlanes (Reply 11):
A cut harness or two (or even a bunch) shouldn't cause that kind of an impact.

unless it proved a lot of test data un-useable now? i dont know, i was just saying what i heard!


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12507 times:

Quoting ESGG (Reply 8):
. I suppose this is done also with a complex thing as an airplane.

Remember the B777.

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 10):
.....but the discovery of a few looms within the aircraft that have been cut.....possibly sabotaged!

That if true is a very serious Occurance.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineNORTHSEATIGER From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12455 times:

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 9):
The people building up the harnesses don't have to know anything about aircraft. They have to know how to follow the specs and they have to know wiring. Mistakes coming out of a vendor are a QC/QA issue.

True if they are at a company physically making the wiring, but if they are at the factory installing the looms to the aircraft then they should have experience or this is where problems can occur, incorrect routing, incorrect attatchment i.e tye-wrapping on to the wrong piece of a/c. Seen it before.



T's And P's look good....Rotate
User currently offlineManzoori From UK - England, joined Sep 2002, 1516 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12418 times:

An interesting item I read elsewhere (can't remember where but probably the Civ Av forum) speculated the wiring changes were down to a switch from Copper to Aluminium wiring. This will potentially save a tonne in weight but in order to keep the same resistance levels the Aluminium wiring has to go up several gauges.

Consequently where the wiring passes through bulkheads etc the existing holes are no longer big enough to accomodate the bigger (but lighter) wiring and that's where the changes are coming from.

To further add to the speculation, I've also read that this has been announced now to drive down EADS shares and reduce the payout to BAE Systems. Once they've been bought out, a miracle fix is rolled out recovering leadtimes... again, pure speculation!  Wink

Cheers!

Rez
 Big grin



Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
User currently offlineMechEngineer From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12411 times:

As far as I am informed from Hamburg, the delay with the A380 wiring isn't because of the basic aircraft systems, but the optional cabin interior equipment (IFE and seat controls in First and business class, for example).

Seems that all those airlines that are paying tons of money for their kingsize airliner want their very own special systems design in the cabin, and Airbus are simply swamped with work because of it.



Heavier-than-air flying machines...
User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 12388 times:

I've heard of the same issue with other systems such as certain airlines wanting to have 02 delivered to EVERY seat, a feature that was not in the original plans.

User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12324 times:

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 17):
such as certain airlines wanting to have 02 delivered to EVERY seat, a feature that was not in the original plans.

Oxy Generators do a better job with less weight penalties & complications...  Smile



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineNitrohelper From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11828 times:

Good day to all, it is now 3 + months since the last tech talk about what really doesn't fit, or "line-up" with the Harnesses. Are there any of you Busguys around here that know what the current best story is on the WhaleJet and it's problem with "sparks & smoke"? flamed 
What is the fix and why a year to repair? Is it design, production,or vendors?
I guess the 350XYZ rev.06 will have a new CAD supplier and operators as "lessons" learned. scratchchin 

Quoting MechEngineer (Reply 16):
As far as I am informed from Hamburg, the delay with the A380 wiring isn't because of the basic aircraft systems,


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11810 times:

Quoting Manzoori (Reply 15):
An interesting item I read elsewhere (can't remember where but probably the Civ Av forum) speculated the wiring changes were down to a switch from Copper to Aluminium wiring. This will potentially save a tonne in weight but in order to keep the same resistance levels the Aluminium wiring has to go up several gauges.

Consequently where the wiring passes through bulkheads etc the existing holes are no longer big enough to accomodate the bigger (but lighter) wiring and that's where the changes are coming from.

This is the generally accepted theory as to the cause of the wiring problem. The reason for the huge production delays is twofold:

1) All the places where the wiring harness passes through bulkheads, panels, etc. need to be larger to accomodate the larger wires. This means there is considerable engineering work on any part of the strucutre that the wiring passes through, as making larger holes in anything will compromise the strength of the original design.

2) There will need to be considerable testing done on the EMF emission characteristics of the new wiring harness. I would imagine that Airbus has an "iron bird" for the A380, and no doubt the new wiring is already well on its way through the testing program.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 11799 times:

The main bundle in the MD11 is about as big around as your thigh. I'm guessing the A380 bundle is the size of Roseann Barr's thighs-pre mod, of course.

I think the problem's more fundamental than won't fit-it's a "no damned way" situation.

Which explains that the prototype has got wire running every which way scabbed on to keep it flying.
What they've decided to do, as near as i can figure out, is stop the line, rip out everything, and start from scratch. They've got hulls built and stacking up in the factory.

And if this means ripping out a lot and starting from scratch, there's going to be structure involved which explains the time delay. Reworking pass throughs in floor beams, anyone?

Ask any fool who ever used aluminum wire in a residential wiring job what he thought of it ten years later....


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11734 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
Ask any fool who ever used aluminum wire in a residential wiring job what he thought of it ten years later

This is slighty off topic but I know that during the 70's a lot of homes in Orange County, Ca were built using aluminum wiring. And around a hundred house fires were atributed to it.


User currently offlineNitrohelper From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11719 times:

I'm sure the floor beams didn't have any extra space,or thickness to play with!
Thanks for the update, big big headaches for sure, hope a year will get it.
I've had similar space problems with building Hospitals, but they didn't have to fly when we were done!


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 11705 times:

This is nothing more (or less) than an engineering fuck up.

If Airbus are switching from Cu to Al wiring, then you really have to question the logic. Whilst this may save considerable weight, is the A380 so far above weight targets that it's justified to delay the programme for a year (incuring massive costs and huge penalties) just to save a few tonnes?

I really can't believe Airbus went into any sort of serious production with weight problems hanging over them, and I really don't think they underestimated the size of harnesses, so what's actually going on here?

This is another pointer to me that Airbus developed the A380 slightly too soon. As it is, they're bringing out an aircraft with lots of GLARE and Al-Li, but limited use of carbon composites, engines that have SFC values and MX costs comparable to 777 engines, but not 787 engines, and they're stuck using technology that will be out of date when the first A380 is delivered.

Why didn't Airbus use ethernet on the A380? The technology was pretty mature even in the mid-90s, it would have saved a lot of weight and prevented these problems. It's not like Airbus to shy away from avionics technology, so why wasn't that route pursued?


25 Dougloid : Not only is it an engineering fuckup, but it is a bottled in bond, 100 proof deluxe fuckup with all the trimmings, cast of thousands, worthy of Cecil
26 Sonic67 : The first few A380 to take flight didn't have a full interior plus all the wiring to go with it. Airbus decide to switch to Aluminium wiring to solve
27 Saintsman : I once worked on a new wing design. To save money they only designed one wing, the theory being that the other wing was built opposite hand. (this is
28 Starlionblue : This reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon: "Our new plan is to extract electrical power from the spinning corpse of our former CEO as he senses our curr
29 Pihero : Never happened at Douglas....? Yet they built airplanes with doors carrying a major design defect, hydraulic systems that were backward and without a
30 Pihero : And you conveniently forget that an MD 11 was lost to a fire caused by Douglas approved electrical harnesses for the IFE. A bit of restraint seems to
31 Dougloid : the point i was trying to make is that this sourt of a production engineering fuckup wouldn't have happened there because the engineering, QA and pro
32 Zeke : Airbus has used a more advanced version of ethernet called ADFX (Avionics Full Duplex Switched Ethernet) on the 380 along with fibre optic data distr
33 Post contains links LMP737 : < http://www.swissair111.org/sbaReport.pdf >
34 777236ER : I find this hard to believe. Are Airbus sacrificing more than a year of production time, and spending millions (billions?) of Euros appeasing pissed
35 Starlionblue : Sounds more like "customers want IFE" and Airbus screwed up the implementation.
36 Post contains images KELPkid : With all due respect, normal ethernet in the year 2006 (the twisted-pair variety, anyways-there is also several fiber optic versions which are also f
37 Post contains images Starlionblue : Ironically the switch will probably be cheaper. Same with Access Points and Wireless Routers. The Router includes the AP and is still cheaper. Long l
38 Lemurs : The 747 is an entirely different creature though. It is still an previous generation, fly-by-cables airplane. The avionics required for normal operat
39 Lemurs : ADFX is a little more complex than just Full Duplex Ethernet. It has to be, because of the application. Ethernet is less than ideal for any kind of mi
40 Starlionblue : The Windows and Linux schedulers are pretty much round robin with some priorities. However, neither operating system has a built in scheduler that al
41 WingedMigrator : I haven't seen any real evidence of aluminum wiring being at the root of the problem. That decision was made before production got very far. From rep
42 Post contains images Nitrohelper : I wasn't thinking about the 747 when trying to picture the harnesses and route paths on the 380, but now this raises more questions about the WhaleJe
43 Baroque : As I recall from reading Dest Disaster in 1977 (so forgive me if my memory has failed) but the design was assessed as faulty by Convair who had to bu
44 Okie : It does not take a whole lot of mistakes early on in a design process to skew the end result. It does not matter if they are supplier related, engine
45 777236ER : Well, the major parts of the A380 which use CFRP and other thermosets are the horizontal stabiliser, rear pressure bulkhead, landing gear doors, some
46 Post contains images WingedMigrator : I forgot to toss in these harness-related figures that Streiff mentioned in a recent speech: 530 km of wiring 100,000 individual wires 40,300 connect
47 Nitrohelper : After thinking about that number for a few minutes, mixed with alum.wires, and going through bulkheads on their way to terminations somewhere, I give
48 Baroque : Dear Messenger See if you can get a few Airbus members of your fraternity to tell us if there have been any casualties lately!! Pegasus
49 Post contains images Dvautier : How are you defining connection? A wire has two connections. If it goes through a bulkhead is it considered another wire on the circuit? If the circu
50 WingedMigrator : I'm just quoting Streiff... but notice, he said connectors not connections. I assume a wire runs uninterrupted between two connectors... if you make
51 Sonic67 : I agree that aluminum sounds risky especially in AC that will have hundreds if not thousands of takeoff and landing cycles not to mention turbulence.
52 Nitrohelper : I wish I could, why haven't we heard from some Airbus engineering employees on this site about the "in-house" stories dealing with the delays? There
53 Baroque : A wild guess, but it might be that they have been told not to respond even to the mildest of enquiries. That could be sinister, but it would also be
54 Post contains images Dvautier : This Cu vs. Al thing brings up some interesting issues. A bundle is designed on a wire board that is generated from the 3D part. The wires are all lai
55 Nitrohelper : Maybe when the pink slips start flowing,and people are no longer an employee, we will hear some facts about the wires and raceways. There must be man
56 ElGreco : You spend a lot of time on Airliners.net, I always surprised to see same comments after months of discussion, but no problem, I will explain you agai
57 Dougloid : It sounds like what they're doing is using the aluminum as a support for skin effect. Which isn't a bad idea as far as that goes. What I'm interested
58 Dvautier : good stuff El Greco Then why is Airbus blaming the Cu to Al thing? Or are they? Is it just wiring in general?
59 ElGreco : Skin effect was not the main target with Cooper clad Aluminium but it's of course a good one, the main one was corosion. Furthermore, the cooper is n
60 Baroque : That is a fascinating extension of your already impressive posts ElGreco. I am wondering how in heck they co-extrude the copper on the Al. From your
61 ElGreco : You know 500kg weight saving per A380 on cables is not a technical evolution, but a revolution, especially because optic technology can be used only
62 Dougloid : this is most interesting. It seems like the 'coextrusion' process will protect the aluminum from plating chemistry. I know my old man would be very i
63 Baroque : Perhaps what we need is a name other than Al cables/wires. This seems a good idea for two reasons: 1. They are so complex that calling them Al is at
64 Dougloid : Well, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief. There seems to be some backing for the idea that the reason that Airbus chose to push the technology here
65 Post contains images Nitrohelper : Is there a technical name for the cables & connectors , or do we use "WhaleWires"? Anybody know who is the supplier ,and what the is trade name for t
66 Post contains images Dougloid : There was one but unfortunately he had to be killed.
67 Post contains images Nitrohelper : Did he have something like CEO after his name?
68 Baroque : I could live with that, but have been chipped in the past by the powers for references to denizens of the deep, cetaceans and other terms eligible fo
69 Post contains links Dougloid : Interesting stuff. The graphs bear you out. I'm thinking that like a lot of other commodities copper will retreat quite a bit from its peak whgen all
70 Nitrohelper : You called that one correct, I used WhaleWires in my post on civ-av and got deleted! I guess the tech/ops guys have thicker skins. Oh well , still no
71 Airgypsy : The problem may be more than just wires. The cabin systems, as previously mentioned, have computer networks to run the InFlight Entertainment. The sma
72 Nitrohelper : Has anyone heard about the re-wire work schedule? Are the bulkhead raceway clearances resolved ? Are new wires in place,or still in design & fabricati
73 HAWK21M : In short ..... Anyone work at Airbus Industries. regds MEL
74 Post contains images Nitrohelper : Hello , , , There must be at least one Airbus worker on this website that can give us a real update? Maybe I can understand no pictures , but people s
75 Dougloid : Are you kidding? Those guys ain't getting out of the plant til they're finished with their work. They're there for the duration.
76 Baroque : Only the ones who have not been shot. Season's greetings all. (Q to nitro, what are these things called holidays please?)
77 Post contains images Dougloid : You forgot the ones whose tongues were ripped out.... I wish I could speak French and I was a fly on the wall of one of those bars across the street
78 Baroque : Hi Dougloid. If you were a fly on a wall in a bar opposite the Airbus works: 1. Any US tourists would be using you as target practice. 2. Any Aus tou
79 Dougloid : Seriously now....there is an incredible lack of hard information from inside the Airbus works....the workers know how to keep their traps shut even i
80 Nitrohelper : Lack of production by the workers, with overeating, and drinking by most all. On topic , I am amazed that nothing comes out from the Airbus worker le
81 Baroque : Airbus don't seem to get many marks these days for anything, but keeping progress on the Wjet tight seems to be a great "success". When the oil indus
82 Post contains links ScarletHarlot : There's an article about the A380 problems in the Seattle Times today. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...chnology/2003494771_airbus260.html
83 Nitrohelper : Thanks for the link , the story answers many of my questions about current WhaleJet operations. I have wondered what happened to the production worke
84 Post contains links and images Zeke : Just adding some images of the complexity of the 380 wiring
85 Post contains links NoWorries : This article in IEEE Spectrum is somewhat interesting since it's written from more of an engineer's (unbiased?) perspective -- I think this is a publi
86 Nitrohelper : Thanks for the update and links , Zeke will you get to fly the "Big Bus" one day? Still haven't seen any pictures of all the A380s sitting around in
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