B742 From Spain, joined Mar 2005, 3708 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9886 times:
Yes, the MD11 is different, several examples below:
- The MD11 has superior range to the DC10
- The MD11 holds more passengers than the DC10
- The MD11 has winglets, the DC10 doesn't
- The MD11 was introduced many years later than the DC10
- The MD11 features a EFIS flightdeck, the DC10 doesn't
- The MD11 needs 2 flight deck crews, the DC10 needs 3
- The MD11 is a 5.71m (18ft 9in) stretch compared to the DC10
- The MD11 has a modified tail with less sweepback than the DC10
- The MD11 features newer engine options from both GE and PW
- The MD11 was faster than the DC10.
- The MD11 featured a new cabin than the DC10
Both the DC10 and MD11 were wonderful aircraft, great looking also! The DC10 was much more of a sucess than the MD11 though! Unfortianatly the MD11 didn't sell well!
CptGermany From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 86 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9809 times:
Good summary B742!!
Quoting B742 (Reply 2): Unfortianatly the MD11 didn't sell well!
Although there might be some poeple on a.net who would, and probably will, disagree with me, I think that the MD-11 was a victim of the Boeing-McD merger/purchase. MD-11 sales were not going very bad, especially towards the end of its production life when many cargo airlines started to realize that it is a marvelous cargo carrier.
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1562 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9329 times:
Some cargo operators that operate DC-10 airframes (notably FedEx) have chosen to upgrade the DC-10 flight deck to use "glass-cockpit" avionics, and a two-person flight deck like the MD-11.
Such an aircraft is usually designated an MD-10 and it allows the operator to dual-certify their cockpit crew for MD-10 and MD-11 ops.
[Edited 2006-06-18 18:06:09]
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
WestWing From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1562 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 9271 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 6): I can only think of Fedex as a MD 10 operator. Are there any other ?
I do not know of any, so my comment is incorrectly worded. (I was only trying to add information to CO7e7's comment about the MD-11 2-person and DC-10 3-person flight deck)
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
CosmicCruiser From United States, joined Feb 2005, 1724 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9049 times:
Quoting B742 (Reply 2): Yes, the MD11 is different, several examples below:
You gave a good overall picture of the diffs. There are numerous other diffs like drooped ailerons, tail tank fuel, fadec and a much higher gross wgt.
AA777223 From United States, joined Feb 2006, 809 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8954 times:
Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 8): At American Airlines, the MD11 was the single most expensive piece of ground equipment they ever purchased. (Next to airport terminals)
What do you mean by this? Is this a joike because they were kept so briefly, or do you mean it was their most expensive aircraft, cause I think the T7 gets that honor. I don't mean to sound dense, but could you please clarify?
Parabolica From Spain, joined Mar 2006, 85 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8393 times:
Quoting AA777223 (Reply 12): Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 8):
At American Airlines, the MD11 was the single most expensive piece of ground equipment they ever purchased. (Next to airport terminals)
What do you mean by this? Is this a joike because they were kept so briefly, or do you mean it was their most expensive aircraft, cause I think the T7 gets that honor. I don't mean to sound dense, but could you please clarify?
I think he means they spent a lot of time onthe deck because they had dispatch reliability problems.
No?
P-
oh please let there never be cell phones in airliners...
Jiwgofly From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8294 times:
I believed two additional reasons why the MD-11 did so poorly. The first was the fact it was delivered to customers (Airlines) withoutrncompletely correcting the software bugs with the glass cockpit. The second was the fuel consumption, from what I remembered the fuel economy was grossly under estimated. In the end it (MD-11) had to much to over come after the initial deliveries.
IAHcsr From United States, joined Jun 1999, 3116 posts, RR: 50 Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8282 times:
The basic difference between the two is the same as between the 747-200 and the 747-400. The MD11 could have been called the DC10-50 .. not unlike how the MD80 was originally the DC9-80...
DC10rules From United States, joined Jun 2005, 97 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8119 times:
One weird (or dumb depending on your point of view) thing I noticed about the MD11 versus the DC10 is the wingtip strobe blinks twice quick, then off, then twice quick. It was kind of annoying bouncing off the winglet as I was sitting over the wing.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8038 times:
Quoting CptGermany (Reply 3): lthough there might be some poeple on a.net who would, and probably will, disagree with me, I think that the MD-11 was a victim of the Boeing-McD merger/purchase. MD-11 sales were not going very bad, especially towards the end of its production life when many cargo airlines started to realize that it is a marvelous cargo carrier.
Absolutely correct. Look at it from the point of view of competition. Before Boeing bought Douglas there were serious talks going on with Taiwan Aerospace (who ultimately bailed on the deal), and some informal talks were had with Airbus, of which nothing came but maybe they walked off with one of those MD12 posters I saw in the early nineties....who knows where such a teamup would have gone? We'd not be arguing about who's going to get the air tanker contract.
Now. If you're in a business where there are a small number of players and the price of assembling a competitive knowledge and manufacturing base is high, it stands to reason that taking out a facility that, although outmoded, does not require a potential entrant in the field to start from a clean sheet of paper-it stands to reason that this is a good business strategy.
Boeing made damned sure that production of commercial aircraft in the United States was going to take place north of Portland on their say so or not at all.
Otherwise, how to explain letting the MD11 and the MD95 bleed to death, with no marketing support? Had they done so they'd be happily cranking out MD11 freighters to this day and people would be forking over money for the smaller jets, that had a loyal following.
But it was not to be.
And there was another reason. The hated pesky competitor had to be terminated with extreme prejudice. The SoCal beach bums had to be done away with, once and for all.
Delenda est Douglas, to paraphrase Cato.
Oh...and that stuff about grossly underestimating fuel consumption-not true. The only operator who ever had a gripe was Singapore-which is a good reason for Airbus to watch out when it comes to jacking customers around. They did not like it at all. I never heard a gripe ever about software, either, and I was there for the first fifty frames.
I've heard this stated many times before about the DC-10 but never really stopped to wonder why. Can anyone explain what makes an airplane a great freighter versus a great pax carrier? Thanks!
GQfluffy From United States, joined Apr 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 6 Reply 25, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7788 times:
Quoting Trav110 (Reply 11): The inlet on the #2 engine has a bigger opening, too.
IIRC, didn't this bigger opening (aka the Banjo opening) cost something like $1 billion USD to redesign and make?
This isn't where I parked my car...
26 Starlionblue: The Banjo redesign is in fact often cited as one of the reasons behind the collapse of MD.
27 HAWK21M: Low cost of acquisition Extended intercontinental nonstop range Lower fuel burn per trip Unrestricted over-water operation Up to 44 percent more belo
28 GrandTheftAero: Thanks for the info! But it doesn't really answer my question. Seems like you'd want all these things (cept for maybe the last item) regardless of wh
29 Sudden: Actually I find it rather easy to see the difference, winglets or not. The DC-10 is more chubby, if I use that word. Aim for the sky! Sudden
30 GQfluffy: Aye...the MD-11 is definetly longer...
31 MD11Engineer: -Longer fuselage -New wing (including winglets) -smaller horizontal stabilizer with integral trim tank (reduces drag) -2 crew glass cockpit -CFDS -Big
32 Dougloid: First I ever heard of that, and I was there. Do you guys have a source for this otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative?
33 Bongo: You may use the search option before: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/70635
34 Starlionblue: Giant Jetliners by Yenne I think mentions it. I would have to dig it out and check Hey, I could be wrong. The book could be wrong. It might not even
35 GQfluffy: I have that book as well, but it's about 200 miles away... I do remember readin this in one of my many aviation books, and I think it is in that one.
37 IFIXCF6: Regarding the bigger #2 inlet: I believe that all DC10-40's (Pratt powered) have it, while no DC10-10/15/30 (GE powered) do. All MD11's have the large
38 LTU932: See below. It was originally introduced into the DC-10 Series 40, but later that tail inlet design got adapted for the MD-11. The Series 10/15 and Se
39 WSOY: Interestingly, the larger #2 opening seems to be a PIP (Product Improvement Package) item: "Phase IIIB in late 1994 resulted in a drag reduction of a
40 Starlionblue: As I've heard it, it isn't the opening all by itself, but also the whole strut system that holds the engine pylon. Looking at the story closer, the p
41 Dougloid: Nice to see all those shots of my old office, guys. I was the only inspector on nights who'd go up in a cherry picker and inspect the fan on number 2
42 WSOY: Before a flight? Every flight? You'd mean at an A check (40 hrs), no? The official Boeing documents deploy no cherrypicker at a typical turnaround st
43 MD-90: I don't think that the banjo fitting was redesigned. I remember reading in Air & Space that it was the best piece of engineering on the aircraft. The
44 CosmicCruiser: I wouldn't say superior and I hope one day folks will understand that after the software change about 6+ yrs. ago it flies great yes, even on approac
45 2enginesonly: CosmicCruiser is right...the MD11 flies very good and stable and isn't that 'rocky' as the B763 which is a bit more nervous. On top of that..the MD11
46 Dougloid: On the flight line we'd check them before every run or test flight. It would be up in the bucket truck with the flashlight and the mirror. There was
47 MD-90: That's good to hear. I always loved how the MD-11 looked, especially in American's and Delta's colors.
48 Dougloid: And fellows, the best ones built went to Swissair. Swissair had their technical people on all the supply chains and they followed the components as th
49 HAWK21M: Im surprised it wasn't Fixed then.Amazing.I wonder why. regds MEL
50 WSOY: Makes sense then, I did not know that you were on a manufacturer's duty, it's not so usual. By the looks of it, must have been a trade union contra m
51 Dougloid: On the first count, it was rather a thing that was difficult to repair and kept getting put off and put off. Safe to say, it did get done although it
53 PPVRA: I thought they shared the same wing, except for the MD-11s winglets and such? That being one of the reasons it is not the most fuel efficient pax hau
55 LTU932: I don't know if those types of wings existed in the late 1960s, when the DC-10 was designed, but I recall the MD-11 has supercritical wings, which in
56 PPVRA: Well, according to the frequently-questioned A.Net Aircraft Data & History page, the MD-11 has a longer wingspan but its almost insignificant, and pr
57 HAWK21M: That Link is a Huge Download.Thanks. regds MEL
58 TWAtwaTWA: So funny but so true! MDD was thinking before their time, and didn't invest enough in their commercial aircraft future, since their execs were vying
59 N8076U: Every time I see that "MD-12" it makes me smile. It's just too damn neat looking. I agree, someone from Airbus may just have studied the poster just a
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