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Pilots And Antidepressants  
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20657 times:
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Seeing that these days antidepressants are being prescribed like bubble gum in some countries, what are the regulations concerning a pilot who takes them? Are they temporarily suspended? Can they take them and still fly a 747 across half the world?


MGGS
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20667 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
what are the regulations concerning a pilot who takes them? Are they temporarily suspended? Can they take them and still fly a 747 across half the world?

They would probably be removed from duty and grounded. I doubt they'd loose their licence. But may be expected to undergo intense Psychometric Analysis and lots of medical check ups before returning to work. (Included would be any re-training associated with a return to duty after prolonged periods away from type...)



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20674 times:

Well, basically, in Los Estados Unidos, anti-depressants are a no-go. You basically are prescribed them and take them, you cannot fly. It's completely ridiculous.

Up to 30% of people in the Western world are depressed to the point of medication at some point in their lives. Anti-depressants are important drugs for many people, and for the majority, they make a major difference in their lives.

What I would ask is; would you rather have someone who is depressed and being successfully treated behind the stick, or someone who hides it and doesn't take medication for it behind the stick. You'd be surprised in random polls about the number of pilots hiding their anti-depressant medication to the FAA.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1796 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20646 times:

How can you be depressed when you work the best job in the world?  Smile

Those pilots who experience depression must not be there in the 1st place, they should take up an office job in some insurance company and leave their place to people who really enjoy flying.



rolf
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20640 times:

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 3):
What I would ask is; would you rather have someone who is depressed and being successfully treated behind the stick, or someone who hides it and doesn't take medication for it behind the stick. You'd be surprised in random polls about the number of pilots hiding their anti-depressant medication to the FAA

And could you share some of the "random polls"? Seriously, I really doubt what you're saying.

The problem with anti-depression medication is the side effects, not the fact someone is taking the meds in the first place. There are some very serious side effects that come with the medications. In fact, that's really the issue of sick leave is a very near and dear subject to pilots. When pilot's have a medical issue ant they're put on medication, we don't have the option of going to work on the medications just as if we worked in a non-flying job. So, if a pilot has a 14 day trip and he is on some dedication for 3 days, guess what? He has to get off the entire trip. Not a good deal.

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 4):
How can you be depressed when you work the best job in the world?

Those pilots who experience depression must not be there in the 1st place, they should take up an office job in some insurance company and leave their place to people who really enjoy flying.

Please see my above reply. You need to get real!!!


User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20633 times:

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 4):
Those pilots who experience depression must not be there in the 1st place, they should take up an office job in some insurance company and leave their place to people who really enjoy flying.

You could have the best job in the world and be depressed as real depression is a medical condition in many cases. Depends on family history etc. a simple great job may cure it in the short run, but not necessarily in the long run. Some people are more susceptible to it than others. The problem is when people think it's not "man" to be depressed, as in certain "macho" cultures. Too bad that such attitudes prevail as there are those who may need help with medication and hide it due to feelings of embarrassment, etc.
-Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineJap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20620 times:

I don't know... some anti-depressants are not so strong that you can't operate heavy machinery. I'd guess it depends on the type- some types have absolutely no sideeffects, while others make you tired, dizzy, coldsweating and just generally not able to make you function as a pilot for any kind of method of transportation.

With the somewhat mild typed that don't really do anything, why not? It's like taking penicillin, fishoil/garlic tablets, etc.


User currently offlineJap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20616 times:

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 4):
How can you be depressed when you work the best job in the world? Smile

Those pilots who experience depression must not be there in the 1st place, they should take up an office job in some insurance company and leave their place to people who really enjoy flying.

You know nothing, do you?! WHY do you talk about matters like this when you know absolutely nothing? It's like the anorexia thread all over again!

Trust me, I've had a depression. It comes for various reasons, not only the job, but family matters, bullying, etc. My depression almost drove me to killing myself- yet I have the best family in the world, I finally got accepted into my dream-education, I was moving out- but I still got depressed- not because of all of this, but because some arseholes bullyed me ever since I started in kindergarten, up until I left school in 9th grade.

Depression can have lots of reasons! If one of the pilots' wife/kid/grandmother/mother died and he gets depressed, can you honestly tell me he doesn't deserve his job? Oh wait, "he can't get depressed, he has the best job in the world!".

YOU need to get real.


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20598 times:

Quoting Jap (Reply 7):
I don't know... some anti-depressants are not so strong that you can't operate heavy machinery. I'd guess it depends on the type- some types have absolutely no sideeffects, while others make you tired, dizzy, coldsweating and just generally not able to make you function as a pilot for any kind of method of transportation.

With the somewhat mild typed that don't really do anything, why not? It's like taking penicillin, fishoil/garlic tablets, etc.

Remember, you're stating that from the position of having a "normal" schedule, not operating in a 6000'-8000' workplace. Medications that have no or little side effects in a "normal envirornment" but change that to reflect the types of things pilots have to deal with. I have no problem with the FAA/CAA/JAA erring on the side of safety. How many "wonder" drugs such as Vioxx, have been released only to find out after the fact there are long term issues?


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1796 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20580 times:

Quoting Jap (Reply 8):

You know nothing, do you?! WHY do you talk about matters like this when you know absolutely nothing? It's like the anorexia thread all over again!

Well I was just thinking out loud, dont take me too seriously  Smile
I am a bit depressed, but I believe that if I was a pilot i'd feel much better, just the fact of stepping in a plane, flying and then landing somewhere else uplifts my mood to no end.

Yet I understand that you can have a lots of thing in your life, and still feel depressed. I have been blessed with so many things and never even noticed, and it did not help me in feeling any better. I am sure lots of people envy me and think that I lead a great life filled with nothing but good surprises but that is so not the case.

So that's for "getting real"  Smile sorry for throwing provocative posts.

As for the question, there are 2 major considerations:
- The effect on the performance of the pilot.
- Whether the chance of suicidal acts and other irrational acts significantly increases.



rolf
User currently offlineJap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20578 times:

Well, Rolfen... having had a severe depression myself and actually getting that comment ("everything you have is so good, you can't be depressed!" and so on) a few times, I'm a bit defensive when it comes to people dissing someone with a depression. Sorry if you were kidding around.

User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20576 times:

I believe for the CAA, those applying for a Class 1 medical who have suffered from depression will be judged on a case-by-case basis by an AME, presumably with an interview and opinions from a GP.


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1796 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20558 times:

Quoting Jap (Reply 12):
Sorry if you were kidding around.

My sense of humour is a bit er...  scratchchin  hard to get
Just say what you think I like it when you're frank  Smile



rolf
User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1796 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20558 times:

Added you to my R.U. for telling the truth.

I was just being jealous for those with such a great job.

[Edited 2006-07-07 16:11:05]


rolf
User currently offlineJap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20555 times:

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 15):
Added you to my R.U. for telling the truth.

Thanks-- I'd add you back, but apparently, I'm over my limit  irked  And I'm NOT going for First Class membership!!  rotfl 


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20542 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
Remember, you're stating that from the position of having a "normal" schedule, not operating in a 6000'-8000' workplace. Medications that have no or little side effects in a "normal envirornment" but change that to reflect the types of things pilots have to deal with. I have no problem with the FAA/CAA/JAA erring on the side of safety. How many "wonder" drugs such as Vioxx, have been released only to find out after the fact there are long term issues?

 checkmark 

Many drugs are prohibited for this reason. For example, some drugs (don't aske me which, I don't have the list handy) increase a person's susceptibility to hypoxia. Not problem so long as you remain at an elevation you are accilmated to, but... Viagra, for example, can cause blue/green color blindness. The list goes on.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineShawn Patrick From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 2607 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 20525 times:

As of this date, the use of ANY psychometric drugs will require a pilot to "voluntarily ground" himself, according to the FAA.

If you look deeper into the FARs about this, though, it states that a pilot simply may not ACT as pilot-in-command while on the medication. Therefore, there are many instances in which a pilot can still fly while on the medication. For example:

1) In a GA environment, the medicated pilot just needs to have an appropriately rated safety pilot who will be acting as PIC for the flight. So, let's say I'm taking prozac and I still want to fly my Cessna on the weekends. I can still do so, even sitting in the left seat, as long as I bring a friend who is a private pilot. He will act as PIC, which means he's technically in charge of the safety of the flight. And, this doesn't even prohibit me from LOGGING PIC time. So basically, the only consequence of my taking the medication is that I have to have a safety pilot. I can still sit left seat and log PIC time.

2) Flight training. If a pilot is taking a psychometric, it doesn't prohibit him from receiving flight instruction, because he won't be acting as PIC.

3) Glider operations and light-sport aircaft. They don't require a medical, so the "voluntary grounding" requirements don't apply.

Of course, if you're acting as a required crewmember, then you're out of the game. So if a Captain or FO on a part 121/135 operation is taking a psychometric, then he's gotta ground himself.

Just shedding some light.
Shawn


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20496 times:

They are strict on medication. There is a small list of what you can take and antideps are not one of them. I'm ashamed to admit that I took antideps for half a month but not for depression but for anxiety. It was the one of the worst experiences I've had, my parents even, with my request, dumped my Doctor and found another one who actually gave me advice instead of giving me pills. I'll probably never take antideps again and I can see why it's banned for flying.

User currently offlineAC773 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 1730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20482 times:

Quoting Jap (Reply 16):
Thanks-- I'd add you back, but apparently, I'm over my limit

Yeah, she owes me one as well. How many other people are on your "mental RU list" Janni?  laughing 



Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 64
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20451 times:

Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 17):
As of this date, the use of ANY psychometric drugs will require a pilot to "voluntarily ground" himself, according to the FAA.

I believe it is psychotropic drugs you are referring to.



Blank.
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20439 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 5):
There are some very serious side effects that come with the medications.

Such as?

Quoting Rolfen (Reply 10):

- Whether the chance of suicidal acts and other irrational acts significantly increases.

Zoloft and Paxil (SSRIs) have that effect only in children and teens, not adults. Obviously, every commerical pilot is an adult.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 18):
I'm ashamed to admit that I took antideps for half a month but not for depression but for anxiety. It was the one of the worst experiences I've had, my parents even, with my request, dumped my Doctor and found another one who actually gave me advice instead of giving me pills.

Ashamed?  Confused

PS - Many times a patient with depression has a psychiatrist or primary care doctor manage medications and a clinical psychologist to handle the therapy aspect of the treatment.

AAndrew


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20439 times:

Just to add: this policy is very dangerous. If a pilot is depression, he or she may not seek treatment because he's worried he'll loose his job. I would rather have a pilot on Zoloft than a pilot with untreated depression.

AAndrew


User currently offlineJap From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20429 times:

Quoting AC773 (Reply 19):
Yeah, she owes me one as well. How many other people are on your "mental RU list" Janni? laughing

10 people or so  sigh 


User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20419 times:

I just checked and the FAA doesn't consider caffeine and nicotine to be drugs. So you can self-medicate yourself all you want just so long as you stick to caffeine and nicotine. Wow.

I have some experience using caffeine for depression before I went to a doctor and got something better. I feel very sorry pilots who have to depend on caffeine as their only hope.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 20417 times:
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I have been taking antidepressants daily for about seven years. Thus, I have read a lot on the topic. I have major clinical depression. About 15% of people with depression will kill themselves and are pretty successful at it. It is interesting what is being said about preferring a pilot on antidepressants rathar than one depressed and unable to take medication. In my opinion, the Silk Air flight and the Egyptair 990 were downed by pilots suffering from depression


MGGS
25 Bobster2 : If they crashed intentionally it was homicide. Are you trying to suggest that depression causes people to kill innocents? That's the kind of thinking
26 PhilSquares : How about doing some research yourself? For instance, if you're on certain types of antibiotics, you are subject to nausea. Shall I continue? Glad yo
27 AR385 : I am not trying. I am suggesting it. Depression causes all types of behaviour. A common one is disassociation and indifference. It is perfectly possi
28 N8076U : What this really comes down to is the fact that everyone is different. Two people with depression will not respond the same to the same medication. On
29 Max Q : JCS17 Well said, I am firmly on the side of those who need help with depression. I believe that, after an individual determines and or is certificated
30 FredT : Having my family distributed between health care and aviation, I have some insight into the issue. It is not my real field of expertise though, so tak
31 PhilSquares : I beg to differ, it is very rare! In this day of computerized medical records, health insurance, NHS if you try to do what you're saying, you are ris
32 WSOY : Does anybody know when the anti-antidepressant rule was last reviewed? If it dates from the era of the tricyclic antidepressants (1960s, I suppose), t
33 Flygaz : I agree that pilots taking anti-depressents should not be able to fly. A depressed pilot will not have his mind focused on his flying, possibly becomi
34 PJFlysFast : [quote=Lowrider,reply=15]For example, some drugs (don't aske me which, I don't have the list handy) [/quote I know you said dont ask but I am anyway.
35 WSOY : Imagine a 25-year old clinically depressed co-pilot working for a smallish regional company. Which is it going to be: "please hire another young lad f
36 Bri2k1 : Yes. The AOPA members web site maintains a searchable database of medications pursuant to certification for FAR parts 61 and 91, that is, private pil
37 AR385 : I'm not a doctor, so don't attack me. Tryciclic antidepressants were actually dangerous because they had the potential of causing liver failure, aside
38 NZ8800 : What if the depression was treated with a mood stablising medication like Tegretol/Carbamazepine, instead of an antidepressant? They also treat epilep
39 PJFlysFast : Thanks for that information. So if I read correctly Zoloft can prevent people from becoming a pilot. I personally dont agree with the FAA there becaus
40 WSOY : Yes to that! And what about caffeine? It is used as a matter of routine by many aviators to hide the ill effects of fatigue. Fatigue, then, has been
41 SlamClick : I am probably going to anger some people with this post. That is not its purpose at all, but my opinions are somewhat unbending on this issue and will
42 Starlionblue : Ironic isn't it? And therein lies the difference between what I think is a conservative or liberal and what the press labels a conservative or libera
43 Turnit56N : I have to agree with SlamClick, especially the point about how flying aircraft is not a right. Remember that commercial aviation is one of the very fe
44 SlamClick : It has long been my opinion that the FAA actually created a disability against which they then discriminate. I'm talking about Red-Green colorblindne
45 Post contains images SlamClick : Well, as I said in another thread, I will fly on a US-flag carrier and a very short list of others. I will not name carriers on that list because I d
46 Post contains images Starlionblue : Truly diplomatic, Captain Click
47 WSOY : SlamClick, I'm glad to see you left the "presently" in. I think they have got stuck really bad in an earlier era. The policy should be turned right o
48 SlamClick : You prove my point perfectly. You think most pilots are depressed and in denial about it. You seem to think that there are huge numbers of us who are
49 FredT : I can't speak for WSOY, but I think this is a good point to reiterate the statistics I referred to above: around 25% (one figure for men, one for wom
50 SlamClick : I have no doubt that the figure is something like this. But having diagnosible depression is one thing, obsessing about it is another, and deciding (
51 Bri2k1 : Don't all jobs involve some stress? Everything we do in life involves some stress, and managing it is part of being healthy. I'm not talking about cli
52 PJFlysFast : Soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are aloud to be on anti depressants and still go into combat. Even peace time soldiers are aloud to take the
53 SlamClick : Name another job where it is possible to kill 200 people in the blink of an eye by missing a couple of things that are so subtle as to be invisible t
54 Bri2k1 : A worker at a fast-food restaurant who takes a dump and doesn't wash his hands (sadly) comes to mind. The point I'm making is that people who can't t
55 SlamClick : Utter nonsense. I am sorry but that is patently absurd. It is doubtful that if a fast-food worker deliberately took a powerful poison in and mixed it
56 AR385 : During the latter part of the 80's or early to mid 90's, I believe, Peru had a bad outbreak of Cholera. A flight from Aerolineas Argentinas, I believ
57 WSOY : That's an interesting finding. We know that in a clinical depression sleep disorders are very common. I have a theory that the causality might be the
58 WSOY : Bhopal, India?
59 Bri2k1 : Explain this one, then: Hurricane Katrina, a massive, deadly storm that thrashed Florida, then headed into the Gulf of Mexico. For decades, experts h
60 MechEngineer : If there is a plane crash or any other kind of fatal accident involving an aircraft, and it turns out that the person in command was suffering from an
61 Jamotcx : Quite an interesting post so far. Basically in England at least you cant just take any over the counter or prescribed drug. You have to make sure its
62 Bobster2 : Chernobyl?
63 ShyFlyer : The problem with side effects is that they are widely variable from person to person. Not only that, but I believe there is a "stabilization period"
64 AR385 : If I was privy to the information that one of the pilots that at some point flying long range flight I'm in has: 1. Accussations of Sexual Harrassment
65 Sphealey : > However, self-medicators (other than common alcoholics) > are almost exclusively liberal politically. And liberals often > do not understand what we
66 Starlionblue : Made perfect sense to me. But you have to remember that SlamClick uses more traditional meanings of the words conservative and liberal than what you
67 PJFlysFast : I think that if the FAA were to give you a check ride and throw some curve balls that you could still fly with anti depressents.
68 Starlionblue : Sure. And I could pass a driver's license test with an elevated blood alcohol level. But that doesn't make it legal. More importantly, it doesn't mak
69 SlamClick : So you are saying what here? That Chernobyl was a SINGLE mistake made by ONE individual in ONE TENTH of a second that led to all those casualties? I
70 SlamClick : It appears that you have copied and pasted from a copy/paste in a reply other than one of mine. If you would like to discuss this further, please sha
71 Bobster2 : Can you please give an example of an airliner crash that supports your statement? That would certainly put an end to people trying to refute it. One
72 Starlionblue : I think Captain Click was just using an example. Maybe it's not a tenth of a second. Maybe it's a couple of seconds. But the principle still stands.
73 Bobster2 : He said it twice, first was "blink of an eye" and then "ONE-TENTH of a second". It's not a "principal", it's an assertion that he made, and I was ask
74 Bobster2 : By the way, I don't think there's even a remote possibility that the FAA will change the rules banning anti-depressants.[Edited 2006-07-18 03:48:01]
75 Post contains links Bobster2 : First, note that this is an old thread that I'm using to post an update. A QF captain who was taking SSRI antidepressants had an anxiety attack during
76 Trav110 : So, when getting your medical and/or applying for a F/O position at an airline at say your early 20s, how harshly would they judge one who takes Proza
77 PhilSquares : Your AME will have to refer you to a specialist. If you've been off of them for a year, it should be no problems, just a lot more paperwork. It's not
78 WSOY : Did you and I read the same report? Some very selective reading, I'd say! The pilot was under controlled medication, flying according to his Authorit
79 Bobster2 : The report was very vague on key issues. Yes, I did exaggerate and use the worst case scenario. I also expected interested forum members to reach the
80 Post contains links WSOY : Bobster2, I found the abstract of the original reference that I hope will cover some your questions. http://www.asma.org/journal/abstracts/v73n10/v73n
81 Bobster2 : The thing that makes me most suspicious is that they didn't mention antidepressants in the conclusion. There is a well know connection between antidep
82 CALPilot : I don't know,,, "oh maybe one day your mom dies after a long illness, then your father commits suicide. That might get you down a little... Oh I know
83 WSOY : You are, I believe, referring to the fact that anxiety IS a symptom of depression in many people and that antidepressants relieve it, indirectly? Or
84 Post contains links WSOY : I researched the web location of the full study. Here you are: link
85 Cobra27 : Depends what you like?
86 Bobster2 : Mainly personal experience. I had bizarre side effects during my first three months with an anti-depressant. The benefits of the medication greatly o
87 Post contains links WSOY : Bobster2, What antidep family drug were you using? You say you were using "a variety of drugs", right? I dont know if you were aware that switching fr
88 Tom12 : Would the reasons for being grounded be things like after taking the meds the need to sleep a lot? Side effects as mentioned. Tom
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