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Explanation Of ETOP(s) Changes To A B752  
User currently offlineASTROJET707 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 299 posts, RR: 5
Posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4220 times:

Would someone explain what physically is done to the airframe and engines when changing a B752 from "standard" to ETOPS?

Thanks very much!

AJ707

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

Quoting ASTROJET707 (Thread starter):
Would someone explain what physically is done to the airframe and engines when changing a B752 from "standard" to ETOPS?

Nothing... It mostly has to do with changes to the AFM and Operations Manual. There are also some extra cabin safety items added, but that's about it. ETOPS really has more to do with the way the aircraft is operated by the airline then it does physical changed to the plane. But, you must first start with an aircraft that 'can' be ETOPS certified...!! Not all can.

[Edited 2006-07-13 02:33:25]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Some components must be of an ETOPS standard.

Components of lower Mod Status although authorised for use by the Manufacturer on Non-ETOPS flights, are not able to be used on ETOPS aircraft.

This also means that if you install a component of a lower mod status, the aircraft can not fly ETOPS routes untill back to original Mod Status.

There are many different rules and regulations on this topic, i suggest reading JAR-OPS for more info.



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineSfomb67 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

I believe some 757 & 767's may have all the required ETOPS equipment installed ( or wired for the installation ) during manufacture, but the airline doesn't choose to fly it as an ETOPS aircraft. They pay a non-ETOPS price, but have to pay later to have it ETOPS certified, if they decide to use it for that purpose.


Not as easy as originally perceived
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

An Hydraulic Mechanical Generator [HMG] is needed for B752 ETOPS Flight.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2540 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Correct on the HMG. Another change may be Cargo Fire Suppression system. As I recall on a non ETOPS a/c the system only has to suppress the fire for 60min, while on an ETOPS a/c it has to do it for the length of the ETOPS cert.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

What About ETOPS Requirements with regards to Bulk Cargo hold Fire Extinguishing System on Freighters.Non ETOPS B752SFs have no Fire Extinguisher for Bulk cargo,just smoke Detectors.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Not all 752s have HF radios which are required.


757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineCalpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Nothing... It mostly has to do with changes to the AFM and Operations Manual. There are also some extra cabin safety items added, but that's about it. ETOPS really has more to do with the way the aircraft is operated by the airline then it does physical changed to the plane. But, you must first start with an aircraft that 'can' be ETOPS certified...!!

You know what, I've got to call B.S. on this one! If you don't know the correct answer then don't answer; And you don't know this answer.

It is NOT just a AFM change.

Not the least of these items is the HDG, Dual fuel crossfeeds, 180 min.Fire suppersion, Heavy weight evacuation slides, HF's, and yes about a hundred pages of more restrictive MEL requirements.

To lead people around the world to think that a standard B757-200 flying around domestic can turn into ETOPS with paper is wrong.

[Edited 2006-07-14 05:33:03]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

The Number of pages or Size of the MEL is Smaller for ETOPS Aircraft  biggrin 
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
The Number of pages or Size of the MEL is Smaller for ETOPS Aircraft

Less things you can MEL means less pages, yup!

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

I can only give you a few aspects of the cabin changes as thats my area. I've not actually flown an ETOPS route yet but some of our 752s are equipped (its most of our older aircraft that are ETOPS from the days of the good ole trans-atlantic charters  Smile ).

The emergency exit slides will be replaced with Sliderafts which come complete with an erectable canopy and basic survival pack (puncture repair kit, water purification tablets etc...).

Liferafts will be carried as well, although all the aircraft have the appropriate stowage that doesn't mean they will be fitted.

I don't know if its a requirment but Survival packs are also added, these are just placed in overhead lockers near to the liferafts. These should contain;

Knife, whistle, canopy, sponges, a cup, torches, sea sickness tablets, boiled sweets, 1st Aid Kit, Hand pump, water packs, water purifing tablets, signalling mirror, sea dye tablets, canteens and a signalling mirror. Oh and of course booklets entitled "Immediate actions and features of sea survival" - I kid you not  Wink

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineSP90 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 11):
Knife

If there is a knife in the survival packs, whats the point of all that hassal TSA put you through about no sharp objects allowed in carry-ons?  Confused


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting SP90 (Reply 12):
f there is a knife in the survival packs, whats the point of all that hassal TSA put you through about no sharp objects allowed in carry-ons?

Don't question the logic  Wink Seriously, AFAIK (and I may be wrong) this is a rope cutting knife for the rafts. So the blade is pretty recessed.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):

Well thats partly right, there is a knife actually attatched to the slides themselves (well a little pouch on there) to allow you to cut the rope. The one in the survival pack is small and besides you'd have to unpack the thing first and since they are the size of a suitcase and are bright yellow someone's gonna see you  Wink

Yes the blade is recessed on the ones on the slides, you are supposed to put the rope through a little gap then fold the rope over it to sever the conection. I've never seen the survial pack issue ones though - hope never to either.

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 14):
Yes the blade is recessed on the ones on the slides, you are supposed to put the rope through a little gap then fold the rope over it to sever the conection. I've never seen the survial pack issue ones though - hope never to either.

Probably a small blade. Enough to hurt someone but as you say it's a bit of work to get to it.

Perhaps there are also scalpels, tweezers and scissors in the first aid kits?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
Perhaps there are also scalpels, tweezers and scissors in the first aid kits

There are some scissors in the AED (Automated External Defib) box which can only be used to cut open clothing to allow quick acess to the chest area - its impossible to stab anyone with them as the pointy ends actually curve outward and are rounded.

I'm not aware of there being any scalpels though.

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting Calpilot (Reply 8):
To lead people around the world to think that a standard B757-200 flying around domestic can turn into ETOPS with paper is wrong.

I never said JUST the AFM. I said 'mostly'... which for the most part is true. 99.999% of the traveling public could not tell the differenace if they walked onto either plane. I also said there were added safety equipment... and lastly, you first need to start with an aircraft that can be certified.. not all can. All of that is true...



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 17):
I never said JUST the AFM. I said 'mostly'... which for the most part is true. 99.999% of the traveling public could not tell the differenace if they walked onto either plane. I also said there were added safety equipment... and lastly, you first need to start with an aircraft that can be certified.. not all can. All of that is true...

In defense of Calpilot's blasting of you, your answer to the following question was "nothing".

Quoting ASTROJET707 (Thread starter):
Would someone explain what physically is done to the airframe and engines when changing a B752 from "standard" to ETOPS?

What 757s are not capable of being converted to ETOPS?

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3728 times:

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 18):
What 757s are not capable of being converted to ETOPS

The Ones with no HMG installed.Unless you fit it  
regds
MEL

[Edited 2006-07-16 11:18:08]


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3707 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
The Ones with no HMG installed.Unless you fit it

Which is no that big of deal to do. It probably takes less time to install it and the associated plumbing and wiring than it does to install winglets yet everybody seems to think 'why not put winglets on xyz airplane?'. But these same people think that if a plane doesn't have an HMG it's irrevocably bound to flying no further than 60 mins single engine flight time from the nearest suitable runway.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineMarkC From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

For the PW engines, certain parts are "ETOPS approved", or "not approved for ETOPS". They are all the latest change parts. It probably has more to do with those parts being BOM when it was approved. I don't think they are appreciably more reliable than earlier parts, but if you want to "convert" a 2000 to ETOPS, you have to go through the list to make sure all the ETOPS parts are installed, or swap for them.

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