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Rapidly Changing Description Of A Regional Carrier  
User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Posted (13 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Back in the early 90's if you told people you were a regional pilot people envisioned this...


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Photo © Craig Murray



or this


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Photo © Colin Abbott



Salaries to fly these planes were in the neighborhood of what they are today. The pay has not dramaticaly increased.

Today's regional AC look like this...


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Photo © Dsavit




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Photo © Peter Unmuth



Quite a big change in equipment in the last 10 years or so.

Leg segments have grown in legnth often taking over routes and jobs from the mainline company.

The airline industry has been using these bargain code share agreements with regional carriers to build a spoke and hub system. At one time each operation having a distinct difference in job descriptions.

But the lines are blurred now. What defines a regional carrier from a major? We'll other than anual revenue nothing else it turns out.

Sure there are still 1900 operations, although most of the larger carriers are moving towards an all jet fleet.

I think a new segment of carrier is being created and were not even really aware of it until something like the Comair situation makes us take note.

The Comair situation will be the defining moment when this new entity will take shape. The characteristics of this new classification of carrier will defined by pay scale and super midsize jet operations.

If the contract is apporoved this new super mid carrier will offer retirment benefits, and a descent salary. It will be another potential career decision to the majors. Something that doesn't exist today in the air carrier market. No one other than the majors offer retirment benefits to my knowledge.

Here are the stats on the CRJ 900....

Dimensions

External:
Length overall 119 ft 4 in 36.40 m
Wingspan 76 ft 3 in 23.24 m
Wing area (net) 738.7 ft2 68.63 m2
Height overall 24 ft 7 in 7.51 m
Fuselage maximum diameter 8 ft 10 in 2.69 m
Internal:
Cabin maximum width (centreline) 8 ft 5 in 2.57 m
Cabin width (floor level) 7 ft 0 in 2.13 m
Maximum height 6 ft 2.25 in 1.89 m

Weights

Maximum takeoff weight (Series 900) 80,500 lb 36,514 kg
Maximum takeoff weight (Series 900ER) 82,500 lb 37,421 kg
Maximum landing weight 73,500 lb 33,340 kg
Maximum zero fuel weight 70,000 lb 31,751 kg
Operating weight empty 47,500 lb 21,546 kg
Maximum fuel load 19,880 lb 9,019 kg
Maximum payload 22,500 lb 10,206 kg
Payload-full fuel (Series 900) 13,370 lb 6,064 kg
Payload-full fuel (Series 900ER) 15,370 lb 6,972 kg

Performance

Range:
Maximum range at LRC NM SM KM
Series 900 FAA 121 (86 pax) 1,498 1,724 2,774
Series 900ER FAA 121 (86 pax) 1,732 1,993 3,208

Speeds: Mach kts. mph km/h
High cruise speed 0.81 464 534 860
Long range cruise speed 0.78 447 515 829

Ceiling:
Maximum operating altitude 41,000 ft 12,496 m



And the Boeing 717...

717-200 Technical Characteristics

Basic Gross Weight High Gross Weight
Passengers
Typical, 2-class
106
same
Cargo* 935 ft3 (26.5 m3) 730 ft3 (20.7 m3)
Engines
maximum thrust Rolls Royce BR715 Rolls Royce BR715
Maximum Fuel Capacity 24,609 U.S. lb
(11,162 kg) 29,500 U.S. lb
(13,381 kg)
Maximum Takeoff Weight 110,000 lb
(49,845 kg) 121,000 lb
(54,885 kg)
Operating Empty Weight 67,124 lb
(30,444 kg) 68,124 lb
(30,898 kg)
Maximum Range 1,430 nautical miles
2,645 km 2,060 nautical miles
3,815 km
Typical Cruise Speed
at 34,200 feet 0.77 Mach
504 mph same
Basic Dimensions
Wing Span 93 ft 3 in
(28.45 m) same
Overall Length 124 ft
(37.81 m) same
Tail Height 29 ft 1 in
(8.92 m) same

The 717 is not much larger than the CRJ 900.

The Majors will continue to take advantage of this segment of underpaid pilots until they take a stand which is what they have done.

Thank you to those that are sacrificing their employment at commair to help define this new classification of carrier and to improve working conditions for those currently employed in this proffesion and those that will be.

If you give them an inch they'll take a mile, and thats what they have done.

Hopefully a contract will be agreed upon soon.

JET



25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2532 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1500 times:

This debate is a good one. It should have been in the civil aviation forum.

I think something has to give in this arena. The Comair guys are correct. They fly Delta pax on Delta owned planes on mainline routes. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck; it must be a duck.

Regionals used to feed mainline or provide service to small markets. CVG-DTW, CVG-YYZ are these small market routes? I'm just a mechanic so route structure and marketing watching is just a hobby, but these seem like they should be flown with mainline jets. The pilots flying a 50 seat jet should be paid on scale that reflects the income of the jet. Delta says these rates will make the little jet unprofitable. Well so be it. Fly a 737-700 on the route half as many trips.

The big shake up with this regional airline thing will come. Airspace capacity will be the demise of these CJRs.


User currently offlineAaron atp From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 533 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

just wait a few more years... We will see a new era of sub-regionals forming to feed the regionals. They'll depart from smaller fields that have never been served before, but in smaller aircraft than today's regionals were using a few years ago.

Maybe it'll present itself as more of an "on-demand" operation flying 421's (or smaller), and it will probably serve a slightly different market than today's regionals.

I could see the fractional market getting oversaturated in 2002, followed shortly by a fleet of 800XPs, B400s, and KingAirs calling itself a sub-regional and finding its niche in the post "charter-my-own" economy.

DALMD88: As Ikarus was so kind as to point out last week, the CivAv forum is not the "idiot forum" but is instead the "people who don't know what they are talking about and blatantly display their ignorance on a day-by-day basis forum." I think this thread will be better served here...


aaron


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Union calls the pilots "regional pilots"

Management calls the pilots "Feeder pilots"

Don't dispute the word. Dispute the economic ability of the aircraft to create a profit. BAE-146's have been flown by feeder airlines for years.


User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

The BAE 146's were an oddity and not the norm, and the Air Waisconsin pilots are well compensated to fly them.

Comair pilots are no longer a "feeder" line. They are flying international trips and trips wit hno connecting flights.

CVG-MCO isn't a "feeder". It's a 2 1/2 hour airline flight where there is no connection at the other end. MCO is the intended destination.

CVG-MCO is a Delta mainline trip.

The whole point is that commair isn't a "feeder" or a "regional" when you break it down.

It's moved to serving a market like Valuejet with smaller planes.

Valuejet pilots make double what the commair pilots make.

Seeing the picture now?

JET


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1424 times:

Jet

It looks like you are still trying to justify those union lackeys costing everybody else their jobs. Was the civil aviation forum getting to hot for you???

I don't recall a rule that says only props are flown by regionals and only the big guys fly jets. So that arguement is moot. There have been a lot of 50+ seat commuters in operation for a while, including ATR 43/42, DHC-8-300, Dash 7, CV-580, Fokker 27, FH-227 ect. I think we could put the Fokker 28, Bae 146 into the jet catagory for commuter operations.

I do agree the line between the big guys and the commuter has blurred since most of these carriers where forced to switch to pt 121 from pt 135 (IMHO that never should have been allowed to happen). Setting aside the false safety rational that was givin for the change, it did provide a solid line between a regional and a big carrier.

Perhaps the answer is to allow all of these small carriers to move back to 135 ops. And perhaps changing the laws to allow for all of the agents, ramp rats, A&P's and everybody else who will lose their jobs to recover losses from the ALPA



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1418 times:

Most airlines see it like this:
planes built by Boeing or Airbus go to the main airline
(smallest planes are the B717 and B737-600 or A318 with under 100pax)
planes built by other companies like Embraer, Canadair, DeHavilland, Fokker or BAe go to their commuters.
(largest versions can carry over 100 pax)

The consequence of all this is that some majors in Europe (will) fly planes smaller then their traditional feeders!



User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

This is very true. I think its more of lets have two governing bodies one about 75% larger than the other, but still intertwined. It seems a major has many more long international segments+everything that regionals fly. Maybe its just easier to manage a smaller airline, and have a bigger parent company. I mean you mean you see what is happaning to UAL even thou they are really knowhere near going under there just too big!

but as they are called the scooter trash pilots do deserve a raise. maybe on miles flown like truck drivers (minus how fast you get there, that is out of pilots control nowadays)



The Ohio Player
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Well, a CRJ-200 has 25 pax per pilot, plus 1 FA. A MD-88 has 71 pax per pilot, with 3 FAs. The ratio of seats to flight attendents is about the same for both aircraft (FAA's 1:50 rule), and so is the ratio of pilots to pax. Since flight attendents aren't paid anywhere near what mainline pilots make (closer to regional pay, though), the crew flying that MD-88 can be paid more because they have more paying pax. It's that simple.

And I would much rather fly on a 717 than a CRJ-900 (even though I like the CRJ-900). Airlines can extort more money from the full fare coach pax when they're flying mainline jets. A walk up fare of $1000 from ATL to CVG on a MD-88 is a ripoff, but how likely do you think a business traveler will feel about paying the same amount for a regional jet; on a regional airline?

Remember, when Delta bought Northeast, Delta Air Lines flew the 50 seat FH-227s for a while. Makes you wonder what THEY were paid. I doubt it was a 727 crew's wages.


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7758 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1387 times:

I can tell you a regional is just as, or more likely, to be pulling ultra-high fares on you. Oftentimes they are the only player in the market. My brother once paid $850 for a last minute business trip from Washington Dulles to Wilmington, NC. Only to be bumped from that flight. Think $850 for the privilage of an hour and 45 minute flight on a Jetstream 41.

I really think Jet makes a very good point, one that more conservative, less union friendly folks don't care to accept. The simple fact that Delta can easily just shutdown Comair shows how expendable the entire operation is. Everyone works for peanuts.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineFr8tdog From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1376 times:

JetPilot I agree,
Mainline managment has blown this way out of proportion. However we have allowed them to do that by not negotiating smarter, with the contracts.

ALPA's pay graphs show that there is a fracture at the lower end of mainline pay and the high end of regional pay. What we need to due, is reconnect that graph allowing it to be one continuous line instead of two.
If this happens two benefits occur, First the regional pilots earn livable wages that they deserve and two it lowers the high proffitability to mainline and will reduce the take over of mainline routes.

Personally I belive this will be more benefitial than just scope clause's, which so-far has shown little effect on managments ability to undermine us pilots.

Comair is a classic case: they are the most proffitable part of delta, Carry approx 25% of the total RPSM's, and has a profit margin of 25% which is by far the highest of any airline in the industry today.
If Comair pilots recieve everything that they ask for and Comairs' revenue stays the same, Comair will still operate with approx a 14% profit margin!
That is still well above any other carrier operating today!

As all pilots who fly in the airline industry know, The work day for a regional pilot is matched with mainline pilots, We operate equipment with similar technology, we have to go through the same 6mos and 1yr checks,
operate under the same rules, scrutinized by the Faa, 6mos meds. , ect. ect.ect.

Finally to the Comair pilots who may read this.
Stand strong, you and all of us will be rewarded in the end.
fr8tdog



User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

L-188....The reason the 135 operations certificates were traded in for the 121 cert is because the FAA saw the change in the nature of the 135 business and realized many 135 operators were airlines operating under airtaxi/charter regs.

The feds saw a need to change the operating rules these companies were running under because they were no longer 135 material they had grown into airlines and should be operated as such.

And the pilots should be treated as such. They operate on a 121 cert just like the majors, and should be paid accordingly.

We need to bridge that large gap fr8tdog is talking about.

The payscale should be linear, climbing at a constant slope toward the major airline payscales.

We fly the same type of equipment in the same 121 operating environment. Yes the planes are smaller....but not to the extent the current pay scale refelcts.

The nature of the business has changed. We should be appropriately compensated through our contract.

JET


User currently offlineDC-9CAPT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

Jet,

I think this is an excellent post and it certainly belongs right here.

Certainly COMAIR has been at the Vanguard of the RJ issue, and they have certainly helped color regional airlines as they are known today.

The unfortunate situation with Comair is, like most other airlines, they want to rumble with the big boys. Hell, they are sharing some pretty busy mainline routes with big brother and a lot of their routes are over 850nm! Still, the front office flunkies are collecting big, major airline caliber salaries while the pilot group is paid shit. If Comair wants to be the Regional Airline's Regional Airline, then they better be willing to put up the bucks to pay their pilots.

The RJ scope clause issue is a major sticking point for a variety of reasons. RJs are a great marketing ploy. Think about it. You put that airframe on a market that supported a Jetstream/SAAB 340 in the past, and now the passenger gets a warm and fuzzy because he/she is flying a jet. You look at airline schedules, and RJs are "bolded" and annotated accordingly to let the passengers think they are getting something special. Midwest Express/Skyway come to mind here.

At any rate, it's interesting to think about the RJ threat to major airline's market shares. In order to get into the scope clause Mesaba put in a first class section in their Avros. Mesaba may go head to head with NW (say between FAR and MSP). The NW DC-910 Capt is making a good six figures while the Mesaba Avro Captain is getting a pittance and driving around in a Dodge Neon. So this is a threat, and sooner or later it may force some parity to the issue.

For Comair bubbas out there...stay strong, but stand by for Texas Air Tactics out of the warchest from big bro.

Here's some more stuff on the RJ scope clause from the UAL TA....it's kind of interesting.

Feeder Flying
o The absolute number of captains plus first officers cannot, as a result of Feeder Flying, fall below the number on date of signing
of agreement.
o Feeder Carrier may not initiate new trip in market served by the Company in the prior 24 months unless the Company can
demonstrate that a new Company trip in the market instead of the Feeder Carrier trip would not pass the BIRR Test.
o Company may not remove a scheduled trip from a market served by a Feeder Carrier unless the Company demonstrates that the
trip to be removed would not pass the BIRR test in the absence of all Feeder Carrier trips scheduled to depart within 30 minutes
of the Company trip.
§ Under Present Book, the above two BIRR Test were not conducted in the absence of Feeder Carrier Flying in the market
involved.
o Feeder Carriers cannot operate between current and future “Key Cities” (which consists of Company hubs and DCA, MIA, LGA,
EWR, JFK and SEA) and, without limitation to the foregoing, may not operate between pilot domiciles or between a Key City and
a pilot domicile unless the Company demonstrates that a Company trip in the market instead of the Feeder Carrier trip would not
pass the BIRR Test.
§ Same present book markets of IAD-LGA, IAD-EWR and IAD-JFK listed as exception to the above, i.e., Feeder Carriers are
permitted to operate small jets (50 seat maximum, see below) in these markets up to 38,200 block hours (present book is
29,200 block hours).
o Feeder Carriers as a group must schedule at least 90% of their non-stop flights into and out of hubs, gateways and 3 other
airports (present book is 94% into and out of hubs and gateways). Also, up to 5% of these flights may have intermediate stops
up to 2 hours as long as it originates or terminates at one of these airports and maintains a single flight number and aircraft for
all legs of the flight.
o At least 80% of Feeder Flying non-stop flights must be on routes of 850 nautical miles or less (present book is at least 90% on
routes of 800 nautical miles or less).
o Feeder Carrier ASM Ratio per present book.
o Feeder Carriers may operate the following type of aircraft:
§ Small jets certified in the U.S. for 50 or fewer seats.
§ Turboprop or prop aircraft certified in the U.S. for 78 or fewer seats (present book is 75).
o Small Jet numerical limits:
§ The Company must maintain 451 narrowbody aircraft of at least 100 seats (“Large-Gauge Narrowbody Aircraft”) to permit
Feeder Carriers to operate up to 65 small jets.
§ To permit more than 65 base of small jets in Feeder Carrier operations, the Company must maintain a base of 451
Large-Gauge Aircraft and 141 Widebody Aircraft.
§ Adding to base of 65 small jets linked to growth of Company operations or replacement of turboprops:
· One more Company widebody for 5 more small jets; one more Company Large-Gauge Narrowbody for 3 more small
jets; one Company 70-99 seat narrowbody for one more small jets.
· Without regard to these ratios, Company can replace 150 current turboprops with small jets on a demonstrated
one-for-one basis and replace Air Wisconsin Bae-146 aircraft with either (i) other BAe-146 or AVRO 85 with no
more seats than replaced aircraft, (ii) aircraft certified for 85 or fewer seats, or (iii) two small jets.


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

First of all, Comair pilots don't receive mainline pay BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAINLINE PILOTS.

Minimums for Comair pilots are 1200 and 200, and have been waived to as little as 500 and 50.

Delta's minimums are 2500.

These are not mainline pilots, and the skill and experience required to get a "regional" job is much less than the majors.

It doesn't matter how long they fly, or really how many people they fly, although thats easy to argue. It all boils down to experience. Comair is a feeder airline, not only for passengers, but for pilots too. Comair trains new pilots, gives them experience, then they split to the majors. Every major airline captain has either done that or worked his way up through the military. He worked his ass off to get hired by United, FedEx or Delta, and he paid his dues at a regional flying much more difficult equipment than a CRJ. Now the regional pilots want the major airline pay without ever having to go there.

Quit crying foul for the pilots. They took the job at Comair, they knew what they were making and they knew what they could make. Now that the union has told them they can get more, they really think they can, and its turning the whole industry upside down.

Regional jets are economical to operate because their costs are low. Paying a pilot the same as that of a 200 passenger aircraft would negate the whole efficiency of the RJ. There is nothing Comair, or Delta can do to change that. The sooner Comair pilots realize that, the sooner they can go look for their next job elsewhere at the bottom of the seniority list.

Quit obsessing with the word "regional." Its only called that because if the airlines named themselves according to how the pilots would be paid, nobody would fly.

Comair inexperienced airlines? How does that sound?

And yes, thats just how ludicrous your argument about "regional" airlines sounds to me.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

Miller 22,

you wrote,

First of all, Comair pilots don't receive mainline pay BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MAINLINE PILOTS.
Minimums for Comair pilots are 1200 and 200, and have been waived to as little as 500 and 50.
Delta's minimums are 2500.
These are not mainline pilots, and the skill and experience required to get a "regional" job is much less than the majors.


I know your figures are right, but:
In Europe I got my job at Sabena on the B737-200 with as little as 250 hours! Nothing ever happened to me or the hundreds of other junior F/Os at Sabena, although we had no experience whatsoever on anything bigger then Piper Seneca!
If we in Europe could do it, then I don't see why junior Comair pilots shouldn't be able to fly a plane like the B737 or A320 with as little as 500 hrs as you say.

Flying a large jet isn't that difficult you know...


User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

I was flying as FO on a DC8 with 300 TT. Flying as FE over the years I have seen 300 TT pilots really impress me, and I've been really scared flying with 10,000 TT captains.

It is a myth that you need to earn experience to become a good pilot. One needs experience to become captain. The FO seat is mearly a captain in training.

I had no problems transitioning form a Seminole to the left seat of The DC8. It takes some getting used to but nothing more.

JET


User currently offlineFr8tdog From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1321 times:

Well SIR, Miller22

I wouldnt suppose you would even suggest!, your statement to the fine military pilots that our country has!
I respect you for your opinion, however I also suspect that you are not a pilot in the airline industry.

Just in-case you dont understand what is happening here;
If the growth at the regional level continues unchecked, your options (if this is the career that you are following!) quite possibly could be severely limited.
With possible reductions on job openings for a Mainline career, its quite possible that your entire career will be spent at the regional level!

This is the first of many battles that will be fought in the negotiating rooms, and could very well affect all of us in the industry now and the future airline pilots in the years to come.






User currently offlineWindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

JETPILOT you write an article, really you had an excellent layout, I think you could write a passionate article with relevanse.

Just what I think:O)



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

The way a pilots pay scale works, whether you want to believe it or not, is pilots compare what their buddies flying at another airline are making, and they want to go one more higher. Basic laws of logic show that if this trend continues, it will reach a point where the companies can no longer pay what the pilots are asking for.

The regional industry has reached that point. The pilots of Comair want to be mainline pilots without ever having to go to a mainline carrier. Comair is not a mainline carrier. They are so profitable because they operate the most CRJ's of any airline in the world (or did before the strike anyways). That doesn't mean that they are taking in 80% profit off of one flight. That means they are taking 10% profit off of 900 flights. When you pay a pilot more, that increases the cost for EVERY flight, not just the total revenue per day. If it takes 21 seats to break even on a crj at comair, which it does, then with a significant increase in pilots wages, that number could realistically rise to 30 seats, which is almost 2/3 of a plane full just to pull a profit. You would see a lot of routes lost to smaller aircraft that can make money with 21 people on board. Hence you defeat the entire purpose of the RJ. People want to fly the smaller routes on jet aircraft. If the company can no longer make money doing that, it either goes under, or reverts to larger routes. Comair can't get larger routes, because Delta flies them.

Realize that Comair doesn't want to fold. Also realize, then that Comair doesn't exist, they are just a page in the huge book of Delta. Delta doesn't care if Comair folds, because they can use other means to get that revenue back. ASA, Skywest, AC JET, and maybe DCI (Delta Connection) will all be the replacements to Comair. Delta takes a small loss compared to the gains they receive from finally getting the unions back at their own game.

Pilots think Comair can't operate without them, and they are right, it can't. But Comair doesn't even exist, and Delta can operate just fine without 1000 greedy pilots, and they will.

Simple economics. If the pilots want to sacrifice their jobs to prove to the industry that they can close down a company, so be it. But all they're really doing is rearranging the way the REAL company deals in Cincinnati. That rearranging will not include the pilots.


User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 1271 times:

JETPILOT, You are still around? I still have not quite figured you out yet. Your an excelent writer, very salient points! Who are you flying with now?
CLIPPER HAWAII



"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 1269 times:

Thank you sincerely for your compliments.

I was looking today at the specs on the DC-9-10 today and saw that the variant carried in the neighborhood of 80 people.

The CRJ 900 has a normal capacity of 86.

Miller22 there are plenty of threads in the GA forum where you are free to post your opinion concerning the strike. Why don't we leave this thread and it's subject on topic.

DC9Capt...great contract info. Seems like the mainline pilots need to protect themselves from managments desire to shift more flying to the regionals.

It also seems that Comair would be crossing the line on many of the major contract issues UAL has.

Why shouldn't Delta mainline buy the CRJ 700/900 and operate them as mainline flights.

Answer.... because it will be cheaper to operate them as Comair flights.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. Managment and the pilots just have to figure out where that line will be drawn.

JET


User currently offlineMiller22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

Jet,
Don't accuse me of changing the topic, then turn right around to discuss the same issues I put forth. Its bad form.

regarding your CVG-MCO trip, the only reason Delta gave Comair that trip, was because it connected their two hubs. Otherwise the only way for Comair to get an aircraft to MCO would be to ferry, which is a non-revenue flight. Brasilias could go through BHM, but there were only 13 of them at the time.

So you see, regional airlines are only that because the union calls them that. Read my post comparing 747 captains to RJ captains which explains why you can't go by the number of seats. Before you argue that, your whole article compared the CRJ-900 (which isn't even out yet) to a B717. Aircraft wise, they do seem much the same, but economically, and professionally, they are two very different aircraft


User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 1252 times:

As a mechanic, thank goodness for the scope clause. When mainline jets flown by mainline pilots flying mainline routes are converted to regionalal/feeder aircraft. Mainline mechanics need not apply.


You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineStraycat_28 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 7 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

Mainline or regional, who cares. Those are just names, which, as this thread implies, may be obsolete.
The real game is revenue. "Regionals" (many of which are actually Nationals now) have been a cash cow for the airline industry. Profit margins are double to triple those of the mainline. The equipment is similar in sophistication to the newest of major airline equipment, and far exceeds the old 727s and 737s.
Salaries are pitifully low. That is true for all of the work force (ramp, CSRs, FAs, etc). Some have decided to bash ALPA here, which is ok, but remember it is the pilots who are trying to make the 13 years they've put in at Comair turn into a career. Why is that so wrong? Yes, strikes do cause disruption, but remember that the Federal Government imposed this Railway Labor Act on the Airline industry, not any pilot.
The way we get raises in this industry is by negotiating a new contract every 3-5 years. We take pay cuts in the lean times, and expect raises when times are good. It's not so hard to figure out.
And again, as this thread implies, there is no pay scale which adequately compensates a 50 seat jet captain because this whole segment of the industry is new. Somehow American is able to pay a 70 seat (Fokker) captain a good salary, but some expect us flying 50 seats to do it for peanuts. Sorry, after 15 years in Aviation I'd like to be paid for what I do.


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 1241 times:

Miller22,

How dare you classify "dues paying" as a requirement to work for one of the majors. Who are you to tell a professional pilot exactly what his or her "dues" are?

An approach down to mins is the same whether it's your mom in back or 400 strangers.

Most Navy aviators start flying T-45s off the boat with 300 total hours or less. Total time, therefore, has nothing to do with skill or proficiency. TRAINIng is the key; if one is proficient, 300 hrs is enough. If not, 10,000 hrs doesn't matter.

While we're on that topic, what the regional airlines have found proves my point thoroughly. Most pilots coming to the regionals have mainly piston engine time. They've found the 2,500 hrs of C172 time has very little to do with flying a turbine powered a/c in part 121 ops. Therefore the total times have come down, b/c they're practically meaningless in predicting training outcomes, particularly for people with all piston time.

Are you aware of how much money John Dashburg left Northwest with? Around 24 mil, for an airline that posted a loss last quarter and had some rather unfortunate occurrences under his watch (yeah, it's an accountability thing).

The Comair and other regional folks deserve a HUGe raise.

This is a pure guess, but if you are a Delta intern, how much do you get paid? Two free non rev passes? Is that part of the "Dues paying" to which you are referring?

I hope not.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 25, posted (13 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 1224 times:

to Miller22 ,

You wrote:
your whole article compared the CRJ-900 (which isn't even out yet) to a B717. Aircraft wise, they do seem much the same, but economically, and professionally, they are two very different aircraft.

About that economical part: well I can't agrue with that.
As for the professionality:
I don't know where or what you fly, but allow me to say you sound like a 60 year old captain proud to have made it finally onto the majors!
Maybe you don't like it when someone argues with you, but I don't f***ing care; Yes, I am only 22 years but I (as well?) fly for a mainline company in Europe (i.e. Sabena) and I can assure you one thing: if you'd show this kind of mentality on an interview over here they wouldn't hire you despite all your so called experience! Some modesty and realism are much appreciated in a cockpit...
Believe me when I say there is nothing special in flying A320 for instance.

greetings from Europe to all Comair pilots fighting for a fair salary!!!!


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