What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340? — Tech Ops Forum

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What Is Wrong On This Finnair A340?

Lufthansi From Germany, joined May 2002, 454 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Look at the standby horizon. What is going on there? Power cut? Pulled CB? Special training cannot be the reason even if the photographer reported an instrucor on board. They don't do this kind of training with folks behind joining them. At least I hope so. Does anybody know the reason for the horizon in off mode?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1077797/M/

Life starts at take-off!

18 replies: All unread, jump to last

Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15870 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

The instruments are actually on. You can see them faintly. What you are seeing is a lighting effect caused by the camera. That is, the cockpit is bright from outside light, and when a picture is taken shutter speed is too short to capture enough light from the MFDs to make them visible.

Sort of like trying to watch an image projected on the wall in a very light room. Your eyes are adjusted to the bright light and the projected image seems faint.

[Edited 2006-07-18 21:52:14]

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo

LimaFoxTango From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Jun 2004, 693 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

I think he's refering to the standby attitude indicator which appears to be toppled with an off/fail flag as well.

You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.

AvionicMech From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 315 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

Starlionblue, I believe he is referring to the standby horizon and not the MFD's. If you look at the standby horizon in the middle you will see that it has toppled and that the failure flag is in view. Although I cannot give a reason for this though I am afraid, as I am a Boeing man and don't know much about the Scarebuses. Wink

Lufthansi From Germany, joined May 2002, 454 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Right. i know the screens are on. I can clearly see the red tag at the F/Os display which indicates the ground.

But the horizon is off. No illusion for sure. So anybody else having some ideas or maybe facts? Is this thing covered by MEL?

Life starts at take-off!

Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15870 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

Aaaaah....
.
.
.
.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo

BoeingFixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3692 times:

I would say it's highly probable that the standby ADI failed in flight.

As for being MEL'able, you can't MEL it on Boeings so I highly doubt it can be MEL'd on Airbuses.

Cheers, John YYC

FinnWings From Finland, joined Oct 2003, 640 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3622 times:

This seems to be a school flight without passengers. As far as I know AY flew some school flights where Captains were from Airbus like in this picture.

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 6):
As for being MEL'able, you can't MEL it on Boeings so I highly doubt it can be MEL'd on Airbuses.

What about for a ferry/schoolflight without passengers in VFR conditions? For example, if they do just touch and go landings in visual conditions do they need operational standby horizon?

Best Regards,
FinnWings

Buckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1314 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

The standby instruments can be covered under the MEL on the 340, as long as the primary instruments are in good working order. No requirement for VFR flight either.

I have seen one inflight when it just toppled. In fact, they're quite shoddy, IMO, and they're just barely enough as a backup on their own, especially the backup airspeed indicator.

Tristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3690 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week ago) and read 3403 times:

On A320 as well the standby ASI and RDDMI can both be inop if everything else is working. Sounds strange when its no go on a B737.

Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15870 posts, RR: 66
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
On A320 as well the standby ASI and RDDMI can both be inop if everything else is working. Sounds strange when its no go on a B737.

Could it be that since the Airbi are FBW there is more redundancy built into the primary systems compared to the 737?

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo

NoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7796 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Let's see, I have cropped the photo and brightened the screens as well as the analogue backup horizon (I believe it's merely a backup).

To me, it looks as if the horizon can easily be substituted by what the pilots see on their left and right MFDs.

I support the right to arm bears

Lufthansi From Germany, joined May 2002, 454 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Ok. So flying is no problems as an inop stdby horizon can be released acc MEL. But does anyone know the reason? The photographer himself? I mean this one is new to Finnair. Have they bought it like this? A burned reading light is no great deal. Who cares on delivery flight... But this fault seems to be not so good for a new (used) plane. It's like bying a car with the right mirror missing. Sure I can look at the left and middle one. But it should have three. And a mirror is not as expensive as this instrument. This for sure are more than 1000$. Any garantee for Finnair? Smile

Life starts at take-off!

Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15870 posts, RR: 66
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 12):
. This for sure are more than 1000$. Any garantee for Finnair?

It's not as if an engine is broken on delivery. This is an easily replaced item that it most probably under warranty.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo

Wing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1552 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Even the brand new airplanes can have broken parts.Thats called "electronics" and the maint. folks can understand what I mean.Pull the circuit breaker and count to 10,and things are back to normal.

This one is from A320 MEL;

¦ 34 NAVIGATION ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦

¦ 22-03 Integrated Standby ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦
¦ Instrument System ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦

¦ 1) Horizon B ¦ 1 ¦ 0 ¦ May be inoperative provided: ¦
¦ (Attitude) ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Operations are conducted in ¦
¦ Function ¦ ¦ ¦ Day VMC only, and ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Operations are not conducted ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ into known or forecast | ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ over-the-top conditions. | ¦

And just to remind you that the MEL used before flight,MEL doesn't involve for the failures occured during the flight.As we don't have a valid information about the stby hrzn. is inop before the flight we can not be sure if that was a MEL item or not.

[Edited 2006-07-20 00:09:27]

Doug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3158 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3238 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
To me, it looks as if the horizon can easily be substituted by what the pilots see on their left and right MFDs.

the whole point of the stby a/i is that the piltos will know up from down if the PFDs fail.

When in doubt, one B pump off

TristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3690 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 14):
b) Operations are not conducted ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ into known or forecast | ¦
¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ over-the-top conditions. | ¦

It looks like an MEL, but what does it mean?
Is this shorthand for something?

Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15870 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 15):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
To me, it looks as if the horizon can easily be substituted by what the pilots see on their left and right MFDs.

the whole point of the stby a/i is that the piltos will know up from down if the PFDs fail.

Yes but there are multiple systems driving the MFDs. In order to have a problem, you would need both MFDs to fail (can the PFD info be routed to another MFD?) OR both horizon input systems to fail. There is quite a bit of redundancy already built in.

"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo

Wing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1552 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 16):
It looks like an MEL, but what does it mean?
Is this shorthand for something?

No I just copy/pasted from the MEL from my computer but the it appeared like this on here.It should look like this.

¦ 1) Horizon B ¦ 1 ¦ 0 ¦May be inoperative provided:
¦ (Attitude) ¦ ¦ ¦ a) Operations are conducted in Day VMC only, and
Function ¦ ¦ ¦ b) Operations are not conducted into known or forecast over-the-top conditions

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