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Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft  
User currently offlineSpinaltap From New Zealand, joined Mar 2005, 440 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12316 times:

I am doing research on refrigerants at the moment and would like to import a high purity refrigerant (R-32, difluoromethane) from Florida to New Zealand. The refrigerant is stored as a pressurised liquid in a small cylinder - I want to import a total of 400 g of the refrigerant. I have contacted a few freight companies and they all say they don't air freight "dangerous goods". My question is do aircraft regularly take shipments of refrigerants or other dangerous goods? Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley? Do any planes have air conditioning?


"I get what they call a stipend, a stipend is like money but its such as small amount they don't really call it money"
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 12258 times:

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
My question is do aircraft regularly take shipments of refrigerants or other dangerous goods?

My guess is you will need a specialty freight carrier. But I'm sure you'll get good answers.

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Do any planes have air conditioning?

All airliners have air conditioning. The fuse is well insulated and planes get very hot on the ground.

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley?

Yes.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12244 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Do any planes have air conditioning?

All airliners have air conditioning.

Yes, but not all air conditioners are created equally. You have never heard of someone topping up the refrigerant on an airliner because it doesn't have any.

An air cycle machine provides cool air without refrigerant. Very hot air from the engine bleeds passes through a heat exchanger. A heat exchanger is like a car's radiator, but instead of coolant flowing through, it's just the hot air. That bleeds off some of the heat so the rest of the cycle is more efficient. It's then compressed, which heats it up again, so then it passes through another heat exchanger. Next, it passes through a turbine. The energy left in the air (in the form of heat) is used to drive the turbine (converting it to kinetic energy) and as a result the air becomes very cool.

A couple interesting points: this is very similar to the refrigeration cycle used in "normal" air conditioners, except the first step is moved to the last. In refrigeration, the last expansion happens at the entrance to another heat exchanger, and then warm air flows through the heat exchanger, transfering heat to the refrigerant. This first heat exchange happens at the beginning of an air cycle, bleeding off heat from the air at the beginning. That's because in an air cycle machine, the same air that does the work on the system is then vented into the cabin; there's no secondary exchange from the working fluid to the air being cooled. Also, the turbine and compressor can be connected by a shaft, so the only input required to the system is a high volume of hot air. That way, the APU or the engines can provide the necessary input.

Piston-driven airplanes usually use regular refrigerated air conditioning systems since they don't have a good source of hot air (if the pilots can stop bragging about themselves, that is Smile). But any modern airplane with a jet engine, including turboprops, uses air cycle machines for air conditioning.



Position and hold
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12207 times:

Quoting Spinaltap (Thread starter):
Also do planes have refrigerators on them, in the galley?

Many galleys have "chillers" that provide cooling air for the beverage carts.
Cold air comes out one place and warm air comes out another. The warm air is exhausted either above the galley or below the floor. I don't recall if these chillers use a chemical refrigerant.

Tod


User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12181 times:

I don't know either, but my guess is no. The beverages are never that cold; that's why they're served with ice. In the old days when food was served, I think it was packed with ice, too. They take on fresh ice at every turn instead of making it enroute. The added weight, maintenance, and potential safety issues with refrigeration cycles are probably not worth carrying them on board.


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User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12167 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 4):
The beverages are never that cold; that's why they're served with ice. In the old days when food was served, I think it was packed with ice, too.

The red wine is always freezing, even on hot days. Surely they don't put that on ice? Then again, cooling something on a plane is theoretically pretty simple. Just put a cooler next to an uninsulated section of fuselage  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12167 times:

My guess is that you'll have to ship that stuff via cargo ship. Airlines do ship "some" dangerous goods, but I doubt you'll be able to ship cans of pressurized refrigerant.

Most if not all goods that need to be kept refrigerated or frozen during shipping in an aircraft use dry ice to do so, and FYI, the dry ice itself is considered dangerous goods. There is a weight limit, per cargo hold, of how much dry ice can be put in there. There are "cold box" aircraft cargo containers, but they are just insulated, and do not have any built-in refrigeration system in any way.

Quoting Tod (Reply 3):
Many galleys have "chillers" that provide cooling air for the beverage carts.

Yes, some galleys have "chillers". They are little stand-alone refrigeration units, like an in-window air conditioner, only larger, and the ones on UAs 747-400s used R134A as the refrigerant (and if I remember right, there were 8 or 9 chillers on that aircraft). The cool air that the chillers make is routed through ducts, which lead to where the galley carts are stored under the galley counters. Two undercounter ports interface with each cart, one providing the cool air, and a second port removes the warmer air from the cart. Some galleys may also have the cold air ported to one of the galley compartments as well (which I suppose is like a refrigerator). But dry ice is also used in each cold cart as well, as the chillers' performance is less than stellar, and the carts need to be kept cold during their trip from the kitchen where the cart is filled, all the way to the aircraft which may take a while, as the catering trucks may be carrying more than one flight's worth of food on board.

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12156 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 2):
Piston-driven airplanes usually use regular refrigerated air conditioning systems since they don't have a good source of hot air (if the pilots can stop bragging about themselves, that is Smile)

Should say "the few piston-driven airplanes that have air conditioning systems." I've never flown a light piston aircraft so equipped...some high-end models, like the A36 Bonanza, Piper Saratoga, etc. are available with this as an option, but as with everything in a light GA aircraft, such options quickly eat into the available load...so many operators just choose to go without. If you really need cool air, just get aloft and open the Pepsi Cans (Cessna) or other air ventilation system  Smile

As an aside, I've noticed that reliable heating is often much more of a concern than cooling things down. The only place onboard AC helps in a single is between the tiedowns and the runway on a hot summer day, and usually more so in low-winged aircraft with a large greenhouse area.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12154 times:

Quoting N8076U (Reply 6):
Most if not all goods that need to be kept refrigerated or frozen during shipping in an aircraft use dry ice to do so, and FYI, the dry ice itself is considered dangerous goods.

What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12147 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?

Great question for a systems DER. How much dry ice would it take to exceed the limits of 14CFR25.831(2)?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...ode=14:1.0.1.3.11.4.179.68&idno=14

Tod


User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12138 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?

Good question. There are weight limits as far as the sum total of dry ice that can be in all of the galley carts. Whether that takes the sublimation into account or not, I don't know.

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 12125 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
The red wine is always freezing, even on hot days. Surely they don't put that on ice?

Why ever not? I frequently use the same technique (albeit not for red wine) in hotel rooms without refrigerators. The secret to avoiding watering down the beverage is to leave it in the bottle. Just put the whole bottle in the ice.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 7):
Should say "the few piston-driven airplanes that have air conditioning systems."

Quite right, few do. I'm excited about the Cirrus though, it looks like it may soon become more commonplace than in the past.



Position and hold
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 12118 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
The red wine is always freezing, even on hot days. Surely they don't put that on ice?

Why ever not? I frequently use the same technique (albeit not for red wine) in hotel rooms without refrigerators. The secret to avoiding watering down the beverage is to leave it in the bottle. Just put the whole bottle in the ice.

Of course. But doesn't answer my question about why they would put red wine on ice, or chill it.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 days ago) and read 12116 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 11):
I frequently use the same technique (albeit not for red wine) in hotel rooms without refrigerators

Isn't this why some hotel rooms have two sinks?
Doesn't everyone dump a wastebasket full of ice into the extra sink, converting it into a beverage cooler?

Tod  Smile


User currently offlineSpinalTap From New Zealand, joined Mar 2005, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12113 times:

Thank you everyone for your replies

Quoting N8076U (Reply 6):
Yes, some galleys have "chillers". They are little stand-alone refrigeration units, like an in-window air conditioner, only larger, and the ones on UAs 747-400s used R134A as the refrigerant (and if I remember right, there were 8 or 9 chillers on that aircraft). The cool air that the chillers make is routed through ducts, which lead to where the galley carts are stored under the galley counters. Two undercounter ports interface with each cart, one providing the cool air, and a second port removes the warmer air from the cart. Some galleys may also have the cold air ported to one of the galley compartments as well (which I suppose is like a refrigerator). But dry ice is also used in each cold cart as well, as the chillers' performance is less than stellar, and the carts need to be kept cold during their trip from the kitchen where the cart is filled, all the way to the aircraft which may take a while, as the catering trucks may be carrying more than one flight's worth of food on board.

Interesting, R134a and dry ice are both non-flammable so I guess this is why they are used. R32 is actually flammable, that is probably part of the problem I suspect.



"I get what they call a stipend, a stipend is like money but its such as small amount they don't really call it money"
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12103 times:

Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 14):
nteresting, R134a and dry ice are both non-flammable so I guess this is why they are used. R32 is actually flammable, that is probably part of the problem I suspect.

How much pressure differential can the storage cans take? In a rapid depressurization, the storage can could become a bomb...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTexfly101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12096 times:

It both being under pressure and flammable makes shipping by air very problematic and subject to very strenuous rules. Just saying no to such liabilities is the standard choice, both of the shipping companies and their insurers. A fire in an aircraft cargo hold usually makes for major headlines and video of the crash site.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12094 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 15):
Quoting SpinalTap (Reply 14):
nteresting, R134a and dry ice are both non-flammable so I guess this is why they are used. R32 is actually flammable, that is probably part of the problem I suspect.

How much pressure differential can the storage cans take? In a rapid depressurization, the storage can could become a bomb...

They've probably thought of that. If nothing else, the pressure difference between the inside of a pressure bottle and outside is probably way beyond the fluctuations from ground level to 40000 ft.

[Edited 2006-07-25 00:48:29]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12058 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
If nothing else, the pressure difference between the inside of a pressure bottle and outside is probably way beyond the fluctuations from ground level to 40000 ft.

I assume he's talking here about the bottles that were to be shipped. It's been several years since I've done the calculation, but the forces involved are surprisingly high. Either way, it's not just the pressure difference that's a problem, but the rate of change of pressure. That's much more difficult to set a limit on, and probably is the reason most companies won't ship them.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
But doesn't answer my question about why they would put red wine on ice, or chill it.

I asked them, and they do it just to piss you off. Is it working?



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User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12056 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
What would happen at, say, FL360 if dry ice were in the cabin, and the cabin were to suddenly de-pressurize? How quickly would the frozen CO2 sublime (transition from solid to gas)?

It can't be any worse than flushing dry ice down the toilet. 

Read Patrick Smith's story on that subject here:
http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/col/...002/10/03/askthepilot13/index.html

[Edited 2006-07-25 02:42:49]

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12051 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 18):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
But doesn't answer my question about why they would put red wine on ice, or chill it.

I asked them, and they do it just to piss you off. Is it working?

Works every time. Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12044 times:

I don't have an IATA Dangerous Goods book, but going from memory, I believe you can ship the R32 in limited amounts. Flammable goods are shipped all the time via commercial aircraft, mostly freighters in limited quantities. The IATA DG book will give you all the shipping/packing requirements.

As far as refrigs on aircraft, I can only speak for the 744 and some versions had a chiller (customer option) that would keep the carts cool. There is a small chiller located in the galleys. On some freighters there is a "lower lobe" cooling system that allows perishable goods to be shipped at a specific temp for the entire flight. It's controllable/selectable from the cockpit.

Finally, most modern aircraft (transport) do have a "air cycle machine". It provides the cabin with pressurization and heated/cooled air for comfort.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9401 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11993 times:

Forget about everything that hs been said here about galleys and refrigerators on board of planes.

Cargo goes into the cargo hold and passengers usually sit above those.

Now, DIFLUORMETHANE is UN # 3252 , class 2.1 flamm gas and is not allowed in passenger aircraft. The only way to ship it is in cargo aircraft and if pacxked according to packoing note 200, you can ship up to 150 kgs.

If you are not familiar with these rules, you better don't ship it. Or ask the manufacturer for help. My DGR book is a bit old, the current ones are on the main office, so double check that informaiton. Regulations may differ in the USA as well.

And if you think it is easier shipping by sea, I got bad news for you. the regulations are as complicated, if not more and you have to deal with the local port authority and whoever they delegate to handle that.

And if you think you can just ship it in a container....



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11990 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Forget about everything that hs been said here about galleys and refrigerators on board of planes.

Really???? As far as the 744F goes, I suggest you do a little review!


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9401 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11984 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 23):

Really???? As far as the 744F goes, I suggest you do a little review!

I don't have to do any review my friend, you should review your methoid handling DGR shipmens. You can ship temperture controlled consignments in cooltainers and it does not matter if you put these on a 744F or a MD11 or whatever as long as you have a standard size container.

What needs to be done in this case is to properly classify the dangerous good as to
UN#
packaging group
packaging note.

From what I have been reading here, it might even have to be packed in dry ice in addition to the packaging requirements for flammable gases.

All these rules may differ in the US from the rules we have in Europe, the airline has to be consulted and since this is cargo aircraft only to NZ there ain't much choice in the first place. And I would not give it to FX with my name on the awb, they have a bad record shipping DGRs.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 Post contains images Tod : Every 744 that I have work on has at least some chillers. The usual locations are: Aft upperdeck galley (either one chiller, one on on each side of g
26 XXXX10 : I have often wondered how the ice for the drinks, or ice cream, is stored aboard an aircraft, I assumed that there were freezers in the galley.
27 PanHAM : Guys, we are talking about CARGO - even more DANGEROUS CARGO. What has that do to with chillers in a galley? There is a galley in a freighter, on the
28 PhilSquares : First off, perhaps you should re-read my post, I stated I didn't have the IATA DG manual in front of me. However, if you would look, you'll find the
29 Ha763 : I do have the current 2006 IATA DG manual. The proper shipping name is also Refrigerant Gas R32. Same UN #, class/divison, same max quantities, and r
30 PanHAM : exactly, climatized +/- 2 degrees C - Refrigeration means something else and you won't find a cargo hold that keep -18 or lower, unless the door is b
31 N8076U : PanHAM, the original poster asked some questions, see above. Those questions were merely being answered. That is what it has to do with chillers in a
32 PanHAM : Excuse me, but spinaltap asked about the import of a Refrigerant from the USA to NZ and he seemed to have to absurd idea that this can be done in the
33 Bri2k1 : I agree, PanHAM, it is you who has missed the point. There is more than one idea in this thread. What you say about shipping dangerous goods is absolu
34 Post contains links SIAC : Spinaltap, The best thing you can do is to go to a company which is specialized in classifying, packing, labelling etc dangerous goods. For example in
35 PanHAM : Sorry, but I have read the question again, indeed, it is more than on question but they are all located around the shipping of a dangerous good from
36 Bri2k1 : Likewise. I'm sure you already know this, but it's the same question. If it's safe to have R-32 on board for use in chillers, why wouldn't it be safe
37 Post contains images N8076U : To me, it sounds like Spinaltap is someone who is doing research about refrigerants/refrigeration, and asked about the possibility of shipping the st
38 Texfly101 : As I stated in my post, stuff like this is covered by shipping rules and as PanHam's post correctly states, when the rules aren't followed, news happ
39 N8076U : A UPS DC-8 on fire at PHL comes to mind. Chris
40 Bri2k1 : I agree. I stated that, too. I also think we shouldn't ignore the topic of the thread: Dangerous Goods And Refrigerators On Aircraft
41 L-188 : That's the book you want to go by. What you should do is check with the various cargo operations between the two countries.
42 FlyDeltaJets : Aircraft carry Dangerouys goods but some are listed as CAO which is CArgo AIrcraft only. That is usually highly flammable or corrosives. Any thing can
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