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Nosewheel Controls  
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3121 times:

Can someone provide a list of the a/c that have nosewheels that are controlled by the tiller and a list of a/c that do the same job with the rudder pedals.

I know the ATR series uses the tiller. Commercial aircraft only please. Also, in your opinion, which works best?

Cheers, Tom

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3085 times:

Most of them use both. The pedals only steer the nosewheel a little in either direction but since they also move the rudder itself they're used for high-speed directional control. At low speeds, and for tighter manuevering, the tiller is used.

I think it was SlamClick who relayed information a short while back about the before-takeoff check in a DC-10. A good captain could perform the full rudder deflection test while taxiing, moving the tiller exactly opposite the rudder pedals, and if he (or she) did it right, the nosewheel wouldn't even move at all.



Position and hold
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Can someone provide a list of the a/c that have nosewheels that are controlled by the tiller and a list of a/c that do the same job with the rudder pedals.

Every commercial aircraft I can think of has a tiller.

All Boeing's...
All Airbus...
All CRJ's...
All Embraer...
All ATR's...

On commercial aircraft most steering is not connected to the rudder peddles, rather the steering is done with the rudder during take off and landing above certain speeds. In fact the aircraft I have worked with the tiller steering dis-arms after passing that speed and steering can only be done with the rudder.

[Edited 2006-07-24 14:38:25]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
On commercial aircraft most steering is not connected to the rudder peddles, rather the steering is done with the rudder during take off and landing above certain speeds. In fact the aircraft I have worked with the tiller steering dis-arms after passing that speed and steering can only be done with the rudder.

Thats great, all I was looking for, same to Bri2k1 as well

Tom


User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17042 posts, RR: 66
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 3027 times:

Note that some of the smaller airliners only have a tiller on the left side. This is the case for the MD-80. So if the F/O is flying that segment, the pilot will steer up to 80 knots and call "80 knots", at which point the rudder has authority. The procedure is reversed for landing. Obviously the Captain has to taxi.

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Also, in your opinion, which works best?

It's about using different methods for different phases. During taxi, when speeds are low and you often need big deflections, the tiller is used. During take-off, you only need small deflections (except on those pesky curved runways  Wink ) and you need both hands for yoke/stick and throttles.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
(except on those pesky curved runways Wink )

I've often thought about that, actually. If I had an engine failure on a single, and there was a perfect, vacant, but curved section of highway straight ahead, would my technique and piloting skills allow me to survive a curved landing in a tricycle-gear equipped airplane?



Position and hold
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17042 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 5):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
(except on those pesky curved runways Wink )

I've often thought about that, actually. If I had an engine failure on a single, and there was a perfect, vacant, but curved section of highway straight ahead, would my technique and piloting skills allow me to survive a curved landing in a tricycle-gear equipped airplane?

I'm inclined to say "Sure!"

There were quite a few curved runways in Laos during the Vietname War. These were used for gun runnning by the CIA (you remember the movie "Air America" right?). Some even had the turn at the half-way point in the runway. To make matters more fun, some of these runways were on hillsides. So landing could involve touchdown while ascending, and take-off could involve a 30 degree turn.

Of course, you didn't land 737s there  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 2938 times:

In the CRJ, you have 7 degrees left and right of steering with the rudder pedals, and 70 degrees left and right with the tiller.

I will typically let the FO turn off the highspeed into the parrallel given they are fairly shallow turns.

Our rudder check is done in the after start check before the nose wheel steering is armed, but you can certainly do it the way SlamClick described. If you do it right and equalize the deflection with the tiller, you can't tell that it's being done at all.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offline320tech From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined May 2004, 491 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Every commercial aircraft I can think of has a tiller.

All Boeing's...
All Airbus...
All CRJ's...
All Embraer...
All ATR's...


Dash-8 too.

In the CRJ, you have 7 degrees left and right of steering with the rudder pedals, and 70 degrees left and right with the tiller.

Pretty sure both the Dash-8 and A320 have this set up too. The max angle is greater for both, though.



The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
On commercial aircraft most steering is not connected to the rudder peddles, rather the steering is done with the rudder during take off and landing above certain speeds.

No, on most airliners the nosewheel is connected to both the tiller and the pedals (not peddles). Pedals have much less nosewheel steering authority, but enough to keep straight on the runway at low speeds. This enables the F/O, often without a tiller control, to perform a takeoff.

Although pilots transfer control from the nosewheel to the rudder as speed increases, there is usually no cutoff speed beyond which the nosewheel stops moving. Rather it becomes less effective, as the rudder becomes more effective. Maybe the Embraers are different?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
This is the case for the MD-80. So if the F/O is flying that segment, the pilot will steer up to 80 knots and call "80 knots", at which point the rudder has authority. The procedure is reversed for landing. Obviously the Captain has to taxi.

I thought the MD-80 had pedal steering? In which case the F/O would not need the Captain to steer for him/her. Most airliners have a speed call at or around 80 knots, regardless of tiller control configurations.

The F.28 is one airliner which does not have pedal steering.

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 1):
A good captain could perform the full rudder deflection test while taxiing, moving the tiller exactly opposite the rudder pedals, and if he (or she) did it right, the nosewheel wouldn't even move at all.

I'm don't know about the DC-10, but on the 747 all that is necessary is to hold the tiller in the central position. Then you can push the rudder and the nosewheel will not steer. The pedal steering inter-connection moves the tiller, which moves the nosewheel. There is a lost motion device in the inter-connect mechanism so if the tiller is held it overrides the pedal position input.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17042 posts, RR: 66
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months ago) and read 2858 times:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 9):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
This is the case for the MD-80. So if the F/O is flying that segment, the pilot will steer up to 80 knots and call "80 knots", at which point the rudder has authority. The procedure is reversed for landing. Obviously the Captain has to taxi.

I thought the MD-80 had pedal steering? In which case the F/O would not need the Captain to steer for him/her. Most airliners have a speed call at or around 80 knots, regardless of tiller control configurations.

I was in the cockpit and observed it myself. It may well be that since some take-offs are rolling and some landings turn off at high speeds the 80 knot call is a more practical handover moment. Don't know.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 9):
I'm don't know about the DC-10, but on the 747 all that is necessary is to hold the tiller in the central position. Then you can push the rudder and the nosewheel will not steer.

That's what he's referring to, on the DC-10 and MD-11 the flight control check is done during taxi and to offset any turn by pushing on the rudder you just add a little pressure on the tiller in the opposite direction to continue straight. It's a technique that keeps any side motion from bothering anyone. Of course boxes don't complain.


User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

Actually, I learned something new here. When I taxiied big jets (in the sim) I pretty much only used the tiller. I always thought SlamClick meant you had to deflect the tiller the appropriate amount opposite the deflection of the rudder pedals to keep it straight. From your replies, it seems like you actually just apply pressure to keep the tiller centered, and the rudder pedals then have no effect on the nosewheel. Interesting! It actually makes more sense that way in terms of systems than the other way; conflicting inputs on an airplane shouldn't cancel each other out. That's why I only fly with weak people in the second seat  Silly


Position and hold
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17042 posts, RR: 66
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 12):
conflicting inputs on an airplane shouldn't cancel each other out.

Don't the sticks in the FBW Airbi cancel each other out? And I read something about the Egyptair 767. If the control columns are pulling in opposite directions the right elevator will go one way and the left another.

But I could be wrong.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
Don't the sticks in the FBW Airbi cancel each other out?

Yes - but I think the Captain has an override button?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
And I read something about the Egyptair 767. If the control columns are pulling in opposite directions the right elevator will go one way and the left another.

Yes - I believe this is true for most (non-FBW) airliners, for the elevators and ailerons. It's a precaution against one control column/wheel getting 'stuck'. Heave hard enough and the two surfaces 'split' allowing some reduced control.



...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting DH106 (Reply 14):
Yes - but I think the Captain has an override button?

i believe both the captain and FO have an override button


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 9):
No, on most airliners the nosewheel is connected to both the tiller and the pedals

Really..? Not one of the commercial aircraft I have actually worked on does this.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Excuse my ignorance but what is a Tiller ?

Rgds --James--



You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
Really..? Not one of the commercial aircraft I have actually worked on does this.

what aircraft have you woirked on?


User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 17):
Excuse my ignorance but what is a Tiller ?

little steering wheel type device on the flight deck wall


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe Corrigan



you can see it here just to the left of the captains control coloumn

[Edited 2006-07-26 23:49:50]

User currently offlineJamesbuk From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 3968 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 19):

little steering wheel type device on the flight deck wall

That silly lil handle can turn the aircraft!! that must take some getting used to given its postion!

Rgds --James--



You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 20):
That silly lil handle can turn the aircraft!!

thats one way of putting it i guess lol


User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 20):
That silly lil handle can turn the aircraft!! that must take some getting used to given its postion!

It's actually quite simple to use. It's a very solid-feeling control and that makes it easy to be precise. I base this on only having taxiied planes with tillers in a simulator, but they were full-motion level D sims.



Position and hold
User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2391 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

On our 767, 747 and A330 fleets there is a tiller on both sides. Our company SOPs allow the FO to taxi from after engine start until aligned with the parking bay.

My tiller is located below my notepad in this photo:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Anthony Jackson



The tiller on the 767 can turn the nosewheel up to 65 degrees whereas the rudder pedals only allow 7 degrees of travel. The tiller is used for turns and the rudder pedals used to keep the aircraft straight during long taxis and the takeoff roll.

As the tiller will rapidly return to neutral it must be held throughout turns with positive pressure, releasing it has caused embarrasment and even injured flight attendants.

During the preflight rudder check the tiller is held in neutral to prevent the nose gear from turning, especially with the towbar attached!

[Edited 2006-07-27 03:18:58]

[Edited 2006-07-27 03:20:05]

User currently offlineMatt72033 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1617 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks ago) and read 2614 times:

Quoting AJ (Reply 23):
During the preflight rudder check the tiller is held in neutral to prevent the nose gear from turning, especially with the towbar attached!

if the tow bar is still attached then the steering bypass pin should be installed.....so using the rudder pedal wouldnt have any effect on the nosewheel anyway would it?


25 Post contains images Starlionblue : How hard and fast does it come back. Spring loaded like. (
26 Post contains images Matt72033 : well i reckon they'd be having a pretty tough time down there if the bypass pin wasnt fitted!
27 Post contains images N8076U : It comes back to centered very quickly, as it is very "spring loaded like". Wait, were you asking a question. Well, the pin "should" be installed but
28 Matt72033 : is that why the tiller moves when going round corners during tows?
29 Post contains images N8076U : Yes, exactly. Funny, I almost mentioned that, but didn't. The turning gets fed back to the tiller through the steering cables. The rudder pedals don'
30 Matt72033 : so on the other systems you mentioned (737, 777, 757, 767), does the tiller not move?
31 Post contains images HAWK21M : regds MEL
32 Post contains images DH106 : That white circular thing then Mel?
33 Post contains images HAWK21M : I thought that was the Gasper Outlet......Got to get back to the AMM regds MEL
34 Post contains images DH106 : Love it
35 113312 : When Ed Swearingen first designed the Merlin/Metro series of turboprops, the plane was steered with an electric motor controlled by a tiller at the le
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