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Cat III Approach (with Pic)  
User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 11509 times:

I saw through some pictures of the lovely DHC Dash 8, and I saw a interesting picture:


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Barry Maas



It has a HUD, how common are those?

And, the remark says: Note the HGS for Cat III capabilities.

What is HGS, I would assume that is the HUD?

And are they required for a Cat III approach?


norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCanyonblue737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11463 times:

HGS is a heads up guidance system. Many are certified to allow Cat IIIA hand flown approaches.

User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11283 times:

All horizon air aircraft the the hud. Can't imagine why, especially since everybody says the pacific northwest has such nice weather.

User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11286 times:

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 1):
HGS is a heads up guidance system. Many are certified to allow Cat IIIA hand flown approaches.

How do they work? I've heard there's a target that represents the runway and you just try to follow it until touchdown?


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11277 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 3):
How do they work? I've heard there's a target that represents the runway and you just try to follow it until touchdown?

I'm sure there's some variation from one to another, but you basically keep a little circle centered in a bigger circle until you go visual.




2H4





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User currently offlineCptSpeaking From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11174 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
I'm sure there's some variation from one to another, but you basically keep a little circle centered in a bigger circle until you go visual.

Thats the way I understand it as well. I got to fly a pc-based simulator at a Delta booth this past May. It was a 737 HUD sim, and all you do is keep that small circle (flight path) in the big one. Then, as you get closer, it shows a representation of the runway edge and even tells you when to flare by flashing an X on the screen. Also shown is your airspeed and altitude with trend arrows.

The program was from Honeywell...I asked the guy running the booth if there was any way to get a copy, but he said they couldn't give it out. Too bad  Smile

Your CptSpeaking



...and don't call me Shirley!!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11161 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 5):
Then, as you get closer, it shows a representation of the runway edge and even tells you when to flare by flashing an X on the screen.

Upon exiting the runway, GAME OVER - INSERT COIN should appear.

The previous top ten high scores, based on the lowest degree of glideslope/localizer deviations, should also appear.

Yep. Things would be different if I was in charge....




2H4





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User currently offlineCptSpeaking From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11063 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Upon exiting the runway, GAME OVER - INSERT COIN should appear.

The previous top ten high scores, based on the lowest degree of glideslope/localizer deviations, should also appear.

Yep. Things would be different if I was in charge....

Somebody has been reading SlamClick's topic on the Brasilian 737s and wet compasses  Wink

Great idea though! I'd put more coins in...

Your CptSpeaking



...and don't call me Shirley!!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10997 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 7):
Somebody has been reading SlamClick's topic on the Brasilian 737s and wet compasses

 yes  Guilty as charged....




2H4





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User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10605 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Upon exiting the runway, GAME OVER - INSERT COIN should appear.

The previous top ten high scores, based on the lowest degree of glideslope/localizer deviations, should also appear.

Yep. Things would be different if I was in charge....



Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 7):
Somebody has been reading SlamClick's topic on the Brasilian 737s and wet compasses

Great idea though! I'd put more coins in...

Your CptSpeaking

I am glad you guys like my posts but there is a side note here."Game Over ,insert coin "appears after the engine shut down,if you "exit" from the runway in low visibility it would be more like "Game over Try again!"

I took this especially for you two from my last flight,have fun.WING




Widen your world
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10533 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Ha....that's great, Wing! Thanks for thinking of us!  biggrin 




2H4





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User currently offlineCptSpeaking From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10455 times:

Hahahahaha thats awesome!! Thanks a bunch, I'm definitely saving this picture  Smile

Your CptSpeaking  wave 



...and don't call me Shirley!!
User currently offline9VSRH From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10365 times:

Wing just out of interest what is the CHG CODE entry for? A bit of a wild guess but... Is it like the code for the flight deck door lock??

User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10333 times:

Quoting BoeingOnFinal (Thread starter):
It has a HUD, how common are those?

In the US I know QX has them, as does AS and WN.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10262 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Wing (Reply 9):
"Game Over ,insert coin "appears after the engine shut down

...So what pilot actions produce this?






2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10225 times:

CTRL+ALT+Delete  Smile Standard Microsoft Airlines procedure!

Thanks for all your help, and for funny imputs.
So let me see if I got it correctly:

A HUD display is not required to operate a cat III approach, but it's required for a handflown cat III approach?



norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlineFlyMatt2Bermud From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 563 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10112 times:

Quoting BoeingOnFinal (Thread starter):
Are they required for a Cat III approach?

HUDs are not required by regulation however they may be required by company OPS SPECs.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 2):
All horizon air aircraft the the HUD. Can't imagine why, especially since everybody says the pacific northwest has such nice weather.

HUDs can be very during night approaches, especially the flair.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
you basically keep a little circle centered in a bigger circle until you go visual.

True and most pilots continue with the HUD guidance even after breaking out of clouds and typically to touchdown. The biggest and obvious advantage is not having to transition from a lower panel to the windscreen, rather you transition through the HUD.

The sensitivity on the HUD is amazing. 10 degree magnetic is nearly the entire width of the display. From the pilot flying view the sensitivity makes it seem like you are correcting all over the place, but from the non flying view it looks like you nailed the approach all the way down the chute even though you are making frequent pitch and roll adjustments if you are hand flying.



"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
User currently offlineCanyonblue737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10052 times:

There is a lot of special symbology in a HUD and much of it has to do with 1) what brand of HUD and 2) what mode the HUD is in. To vastly symplify, during a CAT III ILS the hud will display a small circle which represents where the HUD computer thinks you should have the aircraft pointed to perfectly fly the ILS and then there is a slightly larger circle which represents where you aircraft is actually pointed. You then manuever the aircraft to position your larger circle directly over the smaller circle, constantly chasing it around to keep it captured. At the same time if not using autothrottles it shows you a speed trend as a small bar which raises or lowers above a center line near the middle of the HUD. (slower or faster from your set target approach speed) You can then move the thrust levers to add more or less power which creates an opposite bar. The goal is to match the thrust lever bar to the same size as the speed trend bar. For example if you are slowing rapidly from where you should be the speed trend bar will grow downward from the center line. You then would push the thrust levers forward to add power and create a power bar equal in size to the speed trend bar. As the aircraft reaccelerated to the proper speed the speed trend bar would shrink back to the center line and you too would reduce thrust to match. If you get the speed perfect there would be neither a speed trend bar, or a thrust lever bar but rather you would simply see the center line.

So the whole way down you and your big circle are chasing the little circle, and you are moving the thrust levers to match the size of the speed trend bar until there are no bars (which almost never happens because speed is rarely perfect. It feels like a lot of work when you are flying it but it really works miracles, it is very possible to fly to 50 AGL then to flare and landing with speed varying no more than 1-2 knots and having the ILS bar flawlessly pegged... all by hand.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10047 times:

One really good thing about the HUD is that the display on the glass is focused at infinity so there is zero transition time for your eyes to go from instrument to runway and lighting. Really nice for us old gray heads in the left seat.

Symbology may be similar to the PFD or simplified.

Also I'm not aware of any operations where they affect allowed minimums. They might, but I just don't know any.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineCanyonblue737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10033 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 18):
Also I'm not aware of any operations where they affect allowed minimums. They might, but I just don't know any.

I am not sure if you meant "allowed" minimums because indeed for example in SWA's 737's the HGS/HUD allows the aircraft to fly to CAT IIIA mins instead of the normal CAT I mins. Further several airports, such as MDW, have custom airline approach plates that allow for slightly lower than publicly published approach plates if the HUD is used.


User currently offlineCanyonblue737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10028 times:

Here is a picture of a HUD in CAT IIIA mode...

http://www.aatl.net/pictures/hgs4000catIIIat50-2.jpg

Near the center you can the large circle, with the small circle inside of it. Like I said the goal is keeping the big circle over the small circle with your flying. The -3.00 line is the set GS decent angle, in this case standard. AS 130 in the upper left corner is the set speed, while the big 130 near the center is the actual speed. The ">" is the speed trend carot, near the center now since the speed is dead on the AS 130 target. GS 130 in the bottom left is the ground speed. You can see a drawn 10 pitch line (solid) near the top, and the bank indicator too. -650 is the decent rate, the vertical line in the middle is the localizer deviation (in this case centered since the a/c is dead on).

The mode overall is very "decluttered" compared to a normal inflight mode with more conventional tape displays etc. and is meant to focus the pilot on pure speed and aircraft control on the approach.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10026 times:

Quoting Canyonblue737 (Reply 19):
CAT IIIA mins instead of the normal CAT I mins.

And other airlines have Cat IIIA or IIIB without a HUD.
The minimums themselves are NOT predicated on the installation and use of a HUD.

If XYZ airlines has the requirement in their manual then it is required - but only for them. If you wrote a manual that said that the captain must wear one yellow sock and the FAA approved it then that would be the law - for you but not for anyone else.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineFlyMatt2Bermud From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 563 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10001 times:

The new Air Force C17's have eliminated two Pilot Displays because of the HUD (at both pilot positions). The HUDs accuracy and reliability eliminates the need for the redundant panel information.


"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

Great replies - very interesting!

The DME 2.0 caption at lower right - presumably that's not the ILS DME as the aircraft is arriving over the threshold but the DME of some other NAV aid that's tuned?



...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9919 times:

Awsome information you guys. But, is it a law that the captain is not allowed to take pictures when 50 feet above the ground on final? :p


norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
25 Post contains images CptSpeaking : Actually it is the ILS DME...the localizer is located at the far end of the runway, so the DME reading includes the entire length of the runway. Take
26 CosmicCruiser : I didn't look at the pic but by what you wrote , of course it's the LOC DME. Most LOC antennas are at the opposite end of the runway on a front crs.
27 Canyonblue737 : Not quite. The aircraft itself needs additional equipment to be certified down to CATIIIA for example. The requirements for that equipment are UNIVER
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