QNH1013 From Belgium, joined May 2001, 104 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2166 times:
Last month I was spotting on the tarmac in EBOS (ostend) and I got clearance to enter a Jumbo (won't tell the name of the company). I got into the captains seat, took some pic's and had a chat with the Flight Engineer.
While I was chatting, I noticed that, on the FEs Panel, there was a sticker on a engine instrument which said: 'INOPERATIVE'.
The thing I'm wondering now is, ain't that dangerous? Doesn't the Flight Engineer need als his instruments? Has a plane the clearance to fly with an instrument inoperative? What if something happens which could have been noticed on that instrument?
JT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1928 times:
Im pretty sure that every airline in the world has what is known as a MEL, or minimum equipment list. This list tells maint and pilots what is essential for flight, and what is not. If you think about it, its really not as scary as you think. On most planes, there are 2 of everything. Why down a plane, if one doesnt work? Its way more complicated than that, but no, he doesnt need all his instruments. For example, f/e has a oil pressure gauge, and the pilots have a low oil pressure light. On our 727 fleet, either one could be inoperative for flight. If you really want to be scared, look at the CDL(configuration deviation list). It covers missing parts of the plane. Gear doors, fuel panels, lav service doors etc..JT
QNH1013 From Belgium, joined May 2001, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1897 times:
Tanx for your answers JT, but I can't belive a company can just let the sticker hang around, and 'don't care'.
How long do they have the time to repair it?
And what if for instance the backup (the second instrument) also fails?
JT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1905 times:
They dont stay broke forever. Some mel items have to be fixed at the next maint station, others can go for weeks without being fixed. Its not a question of caring, its a question of logistics. If you have a plane in a non-maint station, chances are your not going to have the parts to fix it at that time. Generators are a top priority item, as are autopilots. Broken ovens in the galley, are what we call class 4 mels. They can stay broken for weeks. Start valves are one of the strictest mels. "A/C shall not depart a maintanance station until repairs have been made". That is a one flight item..JT
QNH1013 From Belgium, joined May 2001, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1883 times:
AHA! you'd really like to know?
I can mail you if you want, but it ain't Hydro Air Cargo.
It's an American one, that changed it's name for several times...
JETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 37 Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1883 times:
An INOP sticker has nothing to do with an MEL.
An INOP placard is placed on an instrument or system that is no longer used but is still installed.
The INOP placard you are reffering to was probably an engine vibration guage. The system is no longer used.
Another perfect example of an INOP system would be TCAS system on a freighter. The freighter might have been equiped with the TCAS as a passenger plane and then when converted the system remained in the plane but the company can't legally use it since nothing is contained in the AOM as to the operation of the TCAS and the crews haven't been trained on it's use.
The system will have it's circuit breaker pulled and the TCAS will be labeled INOP.
A DMI sticker which the above posts refer to is a red sticker containing the DMI number and the date at which it expires.
QNH1013 From Belgium, joined May 2001, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1869 times:
there was only 1 instrument with the sticker (engine n°4) the other ones were without sticker.
If these instruments aren't in use anymore, why does it only stick on the n° 4 engine?
JT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1872 times:
We put 2 stickers in the cockpit when we mel a system. One is on the logbook, and the other is on the piece of equipment. On our fleet, they are both yellow, not red. If we inop a piece of equipement for good, we do more than pull and tag the breaker. We usually cut/cap/stow the wires and maybe remove the equipment completely. We put another placard inside the logbook. This tells the crew that a system is inop, and dont expect it to ever work again. This is called deactivation. Deactivation has nothing to do with the mel, as it is authorized by the engineering staff and the faa..JT
Ryu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1857 times:
A bit offtopic, but what is is the rationale for not installing TCAS on freighters currently? Is it just a cost/benefit issue (perhaps they think that a few crew dying is less of a PR problem than several hundred pax?!)
FDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 44 Reply 12, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1829 times:
What is the rationale? Their is none, just a loophole which I think has been filled....I think.
Many of our aircraft have an operational TCAS system though offhand I couldn't give a number or percentage.
The rationale of a freighter being expendable is deeply flawed. The freighter utilizes the same airspace as the pax flights. And the days when freighters only flew during the late night/early morning is no longer valid. Operations such as FDX/UPS are flying many peak hour flights.
Shark From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1798 times:
JetPilot is about 99% right. The placarding system depends on the carrier. The airline I work for uses yellow mel placards. The main placard goes on the logbook cover with a smaller sticker going on or near the affected system. All thats on the sticker is a control number for the placard so the crew will read the placrd in the logbook for more info. Also the mel will be on the crews release from ops. I do contract work for another major carrier. You put a mel placard in the front of the logbook. If you put anything on the system thats placarded its nothing more that a small inop placard nothing more. Most of the time thats not even done. It just depends on the airlines defferal procedures. And yes these are both US carriers. The leangth of the defferal also depends on the airline with some systems only going for a max of 3days to 30days.
Feret From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1778 times:
In our company if there is a MEL applied to an instrument in is placarded "INOP".
Just to give us the message, there in an entry in the Log, an entry on a sheet inside the Log cover, a label placed in a holder (sometimes not big enough, holds five) near the overhead panel and a dayglo sticker on or adjacent to the applicable control, intrument etc.
For those who are not really aware about the sort of defects an aircraft is permitted to be dispatched with, if you have a look at the Master Minimum Equipment Lists (MMELs) published by the FAA on the site below it will give you more than a good idea.
Speedbird001 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 30 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1769 times:
Sorry, this may be straying from the subject a bit, but on a number of UK A320/321's I have been in, a cockpit switch for "Rain Replellant" has always has an INOP sticker over it and the breakers pulled.
What is this and how does it work? Why would it be INOP?
Thanks
Oecmr From Austria, joined Jul 2000, 31 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1766 times:
hi speedbird,
this sticker is on all of our f70 as well! this system was used as sort of a wiper, I don´t remember exaclty how it worked, I think it was bleed air, or somtehing.... but wasn´t working too well! so they deactivted it!
i didn´t know the old A320/1 had that system as well...
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 24 Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1767 times:
Rain repellant uses a blast of bleedair over the windscreen to remove water. Works quite well at low speeds (some racecars use it, as it causes no drag as compared to traditional wipers), but it is expensive to maintain and does not work well at high speed.
In English weather, I don't think anything can repel the rain, so they may have just given up trying
Feret From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1759 times:
Rain Repellant (Rainboe) is actually a liquid water dispersant that is sprayed onto the windscreens in measured amounts to disperse water droplets. As it is propelled by ozone depleting gases the "greenies" seem to have brought enough pressure to bear to have this system deactivated in a lot of aircraft - hence the "inop" stickers. Nowdays a hydrophobic coating is applied to the screens, but in my opinion, is not as effective as it tends to wear after a while and just when you really need it, it is not as good as it should be. Repellant was used in conjunction with wipers (most aircraft), only sprayed on to wet screens, worked very well but could be a real mongrel to clean off (toxicity).
JT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (11 years 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1730 times:
Feret is right about Rainboe. We have deactivated the system on our entire fleet. If it was accidently applied to dry glass, it took lots of scraping to get it off. No solvent that I know of would remove it entirely. I also agree that the new coatings are not an effective replacement. They are too easily damaged by ordinary glass cleaner..JT
Airplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1719 times:
I've just been through the experience of reading the entire thread on this topic. I've felt emotions ranging from frustration, to annoyance and on to elation.
This thread is fairly typical in that a couple of "semi-correct" responses at the beginning stimulate conversation until someone finally steers the debate in the right direction among a few tangents which develop along the way. Obviously I don't always know the right answer, but I can certainly identify the wrong ones!
This may sound like a complaint, but it really isn't. It's just an observation that contributors may have to wait awhile to allow these topics to play out. I wonder how many come away from these discussions early with the wrong answer?
Well, here's my 2 cents:
INOP stickers advise the flightcrew of unserviceable systems. There is typically also a corresponding logbook entry. Although the crew should read the logbook before flight, it is wise to mark the affected system controls as a reminder.
Different civil airworthiness authorities handle this "INOP" advisory in slightly different ways, but they all have the same intent.
As far as the affect to safety, aircraft are designed so that no one system malfunction can cause a catastrophic failure. Some systems are designed to allow for improved dispatch reliability by using redundant systems. For example, many aircraft use an oil pressure gauge as well as a warning annunciator. Some can be dispatched with only one or the other operative.
The MEL (Minimum Equipment List) provides guidance (backed with regulations) with respect to systems which may be inoperative and the allowable time limit for repair. The MEL also provides instructions to maintenance personnel to disable or inhibit the affected system to make it safe for flight. The MEL is written in such a manner that if a system or part is not listed, it cannot be unserviceable. You therefore rarely see items like wings listed. You also don't usually see items like passenger entertainment listed because these "passenger amenities" are usually covered in a statement in the MEL as "un-required non-essential equipment". (Try telling that to some guy on an 8 hour flight)
On average every airliner flying today has at least one "INOP" system at any one time. (I'm sure there are exceptions...please don't bother responding)
As far as the TCAS "tangent", The reason that Cargo aircraft (or private aircraft) are concerned, there is no requirement for TCAS because of the drastically lower amount of liability involved. TCAS was introduced to reduce the loss of life of commercial airline passengers. Period.
Of course there is no restriction if these operators want to spend the $100,000 but I am certain there would be public outcry if Cargo and private operators were forced to have TCAS. This fact though exposes an irony:
Commercial passenger aircraft operating in the US and some European countries are required to have TCAS or ACAS systems. The systems (See AC-131) must be designed to have a very low incidence of false or lack of appropriate resolution advisories (RAs) which basically result in "evasive action" commands such as "CLIMB CLIMB CLIMB" or "DESCEND DESCEND DESCEND". Because of this, TCAS systems must use extremely reliable altitude sources. If a TCAS system uses the altitude encoder output from an air data computer or encoding altimeter, it must use a secondary source because the "encoder" output does not include an error or failure signal. TCAS systems interrogate other aircraft in the area via their transponders. The altitude readback they get from the average Cessna 152 (or Cargo 747 or private Falcon 900) comes from the single altitude encoder which in my experience can be several hundred feet in error. These errors are induced by lack of, or poor maintenance of the systems or by error/failure not detected by the encoding system. And that's only if the 152 even has an encoder and/or a transponder!
So...there is a serious kink in the TCAS system which has for the most part been ignored. There was for a time an Airworthiness Directive which addressed these systems in non-TCAS aircraft, but has since be rescinded.
Ambasaid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1694 times:
Which airlines dont use the engine vibration indication system on their B747's and what type of engine are you talking about?
As for the lack of TCAS on cargo aircraft, the worst midair collision that i can remember was between a pax B747 and a Cargo Ill76. NEITHER of which had TCAS! This certainly nullifies the arguement against TCAS on cargo aircraft IMHO.
Airplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1685 times:
Ambasaid,
Just a clarification. As long as the intruder aircraft has a transponder, a TCAS equipped aircraft will have the benifit of collision avoidance. There is no technical requirement for both involved aircraft to be fitted with TCAS.
This still allows protection of the passenger carrying commercial airliner if it is fitted with TCAS and the Cargo aircraft isn't.
26 Feret: Airplay, Perhaps you should also explain the relationship between MELs and MMELs and DDGs (DDPG for B737) as you have a much better way with words tha
27 JT-8D: Yes, by all means, airplay is here to straighten out all the "semi-correct" answers from the beginning of the post. I am being sarcastic..JT
28 Airplay: JT-8D, Actually, your initial answer was pretty good in my opinion. So please don't think my comments were aimed at you. For the most part I think mos
29 JT-8D: My appologies for missunderstanding. I jumped to a conclusion, not a good thing to do in any bussiness, and definetly not in aviation. I used the phra
30 Feret: The point I was trying to make is that MELs are Operator and type specific so variations occur with regard to application, procedures and placarding (
31 JETPILOT: Airplay...Your frustration is led by your ignorance. JETPILOT..."An INOP sticker has nothing to do with an MEL. An INOP placard is placed on an instru
32 Ambasaid: Jet, One of the things that we should learn from this forum is that airlines do things differently. We use INOP stickers for BOTH MEL items and system
33 Airplay: JETPILOT, You need to re-read my post. In it I stated that your statement : "An INOP sticker has nothing to do with an MEL. An INOP placard is placed
34 737doctor: My $.02 worth... I am holding in my hand a DMI sticker from the US-based cargo airline that I worked for until December of last year. It's yellow and
35 JT-8D: Please see my post on MEL. Cant we can all get along?--lol..JT
36 Dhltech: to JT8D: coke would take the rainboe off very well and when i worked the capt had to buy the coke.
37 CALPilot: At CO we use the "INOP" yellow sticker for both MEL items and deactivated systems.
38 JT-8D: Dhl, too bad it wasnt rum and coke. Might make the job fun. We used these special pretreated pad things. Had to wear gloves, and it would eat up the s
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