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Minimum Runway Length For 747  
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:


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Just wondering how a 747 landed here with a 6000 ft runway.

[Edited 2006-08-09 00:22:29]


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41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3795 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

You'd be surprised how little runway the largest of aircraft use when empty.

User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Well in EDI we see charter B747's during Rugby season etc. We had an AF B743 in earlier this year which i presume was full on departure and even though the fuel would be low for EDI-ORY the aircraft still rotated 1/2 - 3/4 down the runway.

That is between 4200ft and 6300ft (roughly) so i'd say a B747 could easily depart on a 6000ft runway so long as it was not full loaded nor fully fuelled.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Just wondering how a 747 landed here with a 6000 ft runway.


It's not really anything to be surprised by and has a simple answer.... The aircraft was not fully loaded with cargo/passengers, and was carrying a light load of fuel making it quite capable of operating on a 6000ft runway.

Also, there isn't really a standard takeoff/landing distance for any one aircraft. The distance needed for an aircraft to takeoff and land all depends on numerous variables such as pay load and fuel weight, air temperature, field elevation, etc.

[Edited 2006-08-09 00:42:04]

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 2):
That is between 4200ft and 6300ft (roughly) so i'd say a B747 could easily depart on a 6000ft runway so long as it was not full loaded nor fully fuelled.

The MTOW is 910k from 10,100' at sea level/standard day.

The MTOW is about 712k from 6,000' of runway at sea level/standard day.

Monster weight penalty.


User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 4):
The MTOW is about 712k from 6,000' of runway at sea level/standard day.

Monster weight penalty.

No kidding! I take it that the aircraft could start it's rotation if fully loaded with hardly any fuel at about 6000ft on a longer runway, but those figures are just for safety? Or are they figures you calculated just now?

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16820 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I've seen 747-200s, 747-400s land on EWR's runway 11/29 many times.

EWR's runway 11/29 is 6,800ft long.



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User currently offlineFalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.


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User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 5):
No kidding! I take it that the aircraft could start it's rotation if fully loaded with hardly any fuel at about 6000ft on a longer runway, but those figures are just for safety? Or are they figures you calculated just now?

Boeing numbers.


User currently offline777DadandJr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1516 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 32767 times:

SXM has a runway that is just over 7000ft, and 747's take off and land there all the time.

Russ



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User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9182 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 32767 times:

Someone said that AGC can land a 747, and I believe its runway is 6500ft in length, or 1.23 miles...


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User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1603 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 10):
Someone said that AGC can land a 747, and I believe its runway is 6500ft in length, or 1.23 miles...

It could land, but would have to be lightly-loaded to takeoff again. Maneuvering on the ground might be a problem. It's not the most spacious of airports.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I've seen AF1 land @ Patrick AFB and I believe its only 7500ft in length. So yes a 747 can land and depart on short runways. Its part of its STOL capability. Go in heavy and take off light. You just have to know your mins.

Say I want to fly a 747 routing AMS-SXM-AMS. I would bring on a full load of fuel so after I land @ SXM it has fuel to get to CUR, but its light enogh to take off.

MCOflyer



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User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I have seen video of a QF 744 at an airshow somewhere in Australia taking off in less than 4000 feet. Maybe less than 3000. It must have been totally empty. They spun up the engines to full boil and let the brakes off. Literally the takeoff roll was no more than 10 seconds. The plane screamed by the photographer, who was about halfway down, already a good 100 feet off the runway


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User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4028 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 9):
SXM has a runway that is just over 7000ft, and 747's take off and land there all the time.

But typically the KLM 744s must depart being weight restricted and must make a fuel stop at SDQ, MIA, CUR or FLL on the way back to AMS. I'm certain the same applies for the AF A340 headed for CDG. It does amaze me however what this airport (SXM) originally developed as a US Navy ASW base during WWII has turned into, especially over the last 20 years. Who would have thought of 744s landing and departing back as recently as the early 1970s?

[Edited 2006-08-09 05:30:43]For Spelling

[Edited 2006-08-09 05:31:31]


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User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.

It's a B742 "Lebombo" that was ferried to Rand as a museum piece there. I wish I'd been there to see it land! I believe there's been some talk of SAA donating an -SP for the museum at Rand as well.

Bren



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21526 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 12):
Go in heavy and take off light

Going in heavy doesn't help decrease your landing distance. Quite the reverse - it increases it.

-Mir



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User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I became a believer when a C-5 landed at MKC.


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User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 935 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Remember that BA 744 that made an emergency landing in Kazakhstan? It was fully loaded with pax however probably only had half of it's fuel left at the time.

User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8443 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.

It is a museum piece at Rand, you can see it in this photo. The runway is only 50ft wide and 5,446ft long, and when Lebombo landed it stopped before the intersection shown in this picture (landed from bottom right). The runway was only a bogie width wider than the main landing gear!

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This link has the airfield plate and some comments from the captain who did the landing, as well as some great photos of the landing.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121600

Here you can see how close to the terminal she is parked!

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Quoting Brenintw (Reply 15):
there's been some talk of SAA donating an -SP for the museum at Rand as well.

It is at JNB ready to be moved, just red tape holding it up I believe.
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User currently offlineSquawk0303 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

i guess those short field landing pay off one time or another

User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 8):
Boeing numbers.

Great, thanks! So i take it that because they are Boeing numbers they will not be exact as they will allow excess runway for safety purposes?

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Andz (Reply 19):
It is at JNB ready to be moved, just red tape holding it up I believe.

I might just have to try to fly home to JNB to see that when it does happen! It'd be amazing to watch the -SP land at Rand. If I remember correctly, last time I flew HKG-JNB on SA, it was on an -SP.

Bren



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently onlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17001 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 5):
No kidding! I take it that the aircraft could start it's rotation if fully loaded with hardly any fuel at about 6000ft on a longer runway, but those figures are just for safety? Or are they figures you calculated just now?



Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 21):
So i take it that because they are Boeing numbers they will not be exact as they will allow excess runway for safety purposes?

The numbers are very exact. But they do include provisions for emergencies. For example, landing distances have a 50% pad factor. In other words, you should be able to land with 2/3 of the runway. Take-off distances take into consideration the need to be able to brake from V1 in case of an engine failure.

The actual take-off and landing rolls will always be much shorter than the posted number.



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User currently onlineZSOFN From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
There's a picture circulating with what I remember being an SAA 747 landing in Rand, South Africa. The runways there are only 4900 and 5600 feet by 50 wide (?!?). I believe it was flown there for storage or breakup.







Edit: Found the 2nd picture - link here.

[Edited 2006-08-09 14:23:25]

[Edited 2006-08-09 14:23:57]

25 Post contains images Dogfighter2111 : Yeh, that is what i meant. Thanks for confirming Mike
26 MasterBean : I've always wanted to watch a 747 land at Kemble but I don't know where to get information about when the next 747 will come to get scraped. Does anyo
27 StarAC17 : IIRC the AF A343 used on CDG-SXM-CDG doesn't need a fuel stop, whether or not that flight is weight restricted I'm not sure. Also I think the biggest
28 lowrider : We don't carry plates for anything shorter than 6000 ft. Shorter runways are possible, but have little practical use outside demonstration value.
29 kanban : Renton Municipal is only 5380ft and they brought the first 747 3 production A?C (not RA001) in for retrofit after cert testing... no problem except th
30 MSY772LR : It doesn't. It comes and goes from CDG nonstop.
31 thegeek : How does it matter to your take off roll whether the fuel has been loaded in SXM or AMS?? Take off is the more critical movement. So, how come the UA
32 tsra : MKC sees large military planes often. I have heard that C-130s, C-17s, and a variety of fighter jet crews will fly in and drive across the river to g
33 tdscanuck : Note: Reply 32 is bump on a 2 year old thread (and a reply to a 6 year old portion)...just make sure you read the whole thread before replying further
34 prebennorholm : Sounded weird to me. But then I found a poster at skyscrapercity.com who tells that the reason was runway surface strength, not length. That UA 747 w
35 RussianJet : Remember the BA 744 emergency landing in Uralsk? I believe they had to send other aircraft to ferry the pax as it would not get off that runway fully-
36 hotelmode : That wasn't because of runway length it was because the runway bearing strength was not enough to permit a loaded 747.[Edited 2012-09-20 12:03:05]
37 RussianJet : A-ha? Never realised that! Thanks.
38 aircellist : At the time, I saw an AC 747 take-off from YUL's shortest runway (7001 ft). I suppose it was empty, flying back from the workshops at YUL to the fligh
39 PC12Fan : Not 747 caliber but I remember visiting Seattle area and checked out Renton. Saw a UPS 752F go on a test flight, and the thing used just over 2000' t
40 Post contains links and images dlednicer : During the early days of the 747 program, test airframes were flown into Renton to be refurbished before delivery. Renton's runway is 5382 feet long.
41 Post contains links tdscanuck : The report is here: http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/dvdfiles/US/1969-12-13-US.pdf It's a fun read. Tom.
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