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747-100 Dome Windows  
User currently offlineBraniff747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 107 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Why do some -100s have only have 3 windows on each side of the dome:


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Photo © Richard Silagi



While others have more:


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Photo © Michael F. McLaughlin



I used to think you could tell the difference between the -100 and -200 by the number of windows in the dome, but this doesn't seem the case, as the the -200's dome resembles some of the -100s:


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Is there an easy way to tell the difference between the -100 and -200? For example, the -300 and -400 both have the extended upper deck, but the -400 has winglets.




17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

When airlines started putting seats up there they added some more windows that is why the 100 has more then 3 normally!
Iain


User currently offlinePhilB From Ireland, joined May 1999, 2915 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

The upper deck was originally going to be a bar area - and in many cases, for a short time, was.

When passenger seats replaced the "recreational area" there were complaints about lack of windows.

Boeing offered a retro fit of up to 10 windows per side which some airlines took up BUT, though many recognition books say that 100srs with the conversion and all 200srs have ten windows per side, this is not strictly true.

The window blanks for 10 a side are there but some airlines left the odd window blanked over, depending on how it fitted out the upper deck. For instance, if the crew rest area was at the rear, the last row or two of windows may have been left blank.


User currently offlineA40-TY From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

When early 747's were delivered to their customers, they were equipped with a lounge area on the upper deck, and so were fitted with a 3 window set. With the increase in oil prices in the 1970's, airlines saw the financial benefits of adding more seats on the upper deck, in turn a large number of 747's (both -100's and -200's) were converted in order to have 10 windows to cater for the increase in the number of passengers. For some reason, a smaller number of 747's retained their 3 window status (the French airline Corsair still operate a 747-100 with the 3 window set, as do Air Atlanta Icelandic who operate a couple of 747-246B's that retain their 3 window upper deck).
On your second question about 'Is it possible to identify the difference between a 747-100 and 747-200?'
The answer is yes, on some aircraft...We have already established that it is very difficult to tell a -100 from a -200 by the number of windows, however it can be possible to identify one model from the other by engine type.
Any 747 with CF6 powerplants is a -200 (or 300), as this engine option was offered on the higher gross weight model (-200). Also the Rolls Royce RB211-524D4 powered 747's are -200's, again offered on the higher gross weight 747-200. However Saudi Arabian Airlines operates a number of Rolls Royce RB211-524B 747's that are actually -100's (custom built lower thrust and weight aircraft). It is much more difficult to spot the difference between a P+W 747-100 and 747-200 as the engine design is virtually identical.
Finally, you also say that a 747-300 can be spotted easily...however, some airlines (eg. KLM and Japan Airlines) had their 747-100 and 747-200 aircraft converted with the SUD (Stretched Upper Deck) feature, so they are now technically 747-300's, but the airlines themselves call them 747-206B SUD (KLM) and Japan Airlines 747-146B SUD. Japan Airlines designates a small number of it's 747 Short Range aircraft 747-146BSR/SUD!!







I love it when a plan comes together
User currently offlineBraniff747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

Thank you for your excellent and helpful response.  Smile

User currently offlineKing767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1894 times:

I heard that another reason why airlines added the windows was also to convince mainly the more frequent passangers that they were flying on a newer -200, as the 3 window setup resembled an early 747, which may not impress some passangers.

-Tom


User currently offlineSkwpilot From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 60 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Hi guys!

From what I've been able to surmise from my studies, the 100 series 74's had a series of black lines (static electricity conductors between the forward spar and the hot leading edge on the top of the wing. These panels were composite requiring static dischargers. On the 200's, these don't show as I suspect some other method was developed.

Happy Flying!

Skwpilot


User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1854 times:

TWA had the extra windows plugged for fleet commonality on their 747's.


N/A
User currently offlineBraniff747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1846 times:

So that's why you only see 3 windows on the TWA800 plane before the accident:


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But more than 3 in the NTSB wreckage recreation photos? The plugs fell out from the force of explosion/impact?


User currently offlineSpeedbird001 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Does anyone have any photos of the lounge/bar area when fitted out to a 747?
Thanks


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29840 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Somebody asked that question a looonnnng while back.

Somebody noticed that the fuselage section from the left side had only three windows and the right side had 7 windows.

That was how the NTSB was able to determine which side of the aircraft hit the water. The force of the impace drove four of the blanks out of the fuselage on the impact side.

I am pretty sure I remember which side hit first and the number of blown windows but correct me if I screwed up. I am working off of memory here.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1816 times:

For whoever asked for pics of the upperdeck in lounge form:

"747 Braniff Place: The Most Exclusive Address In The Sky."


TWA Lounge

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Photo © Mike Genovese



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Photo © Mike Genovese




N/A
User currently offline747Specialist From Switzerland, joined Apr 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1788 times:

There's always a misunderstanding about the difference between a 741 and a 742. It's not the numbers of windows on the upper deck.
All passenger's 747s from line nr #1 to line nr#148 were buildt with 3 window holes on the upper-deck. This include 100 and 200 series. Line #149 (First QANTAS 747-238B VH-EBA) was the first 747 buildt with 8 to 10 window holes, and that became standard for all classic 747s buildt just after it, again including -100 and 200 series. Now some early 747 operators had to made a choice for fleet commonalty: Either they had to convert their early 747s to 8/10 windows or had their new delivered 747s with 3 windows and blanks to cover the remaining holes on the upper deck.
The only 3 operators that had 747s delivered (after #149) with 3 windows (+ 5 blanks) were American, PanAm and TWA. On the other hand, British Airways, KLM, Sabena, Northwest, Air Canada, Swissair, United and Air India had all their early 747s retroffited with the 8/10 windows modification.
Saudia is the only operator that received it's whole bunch of 747-100s with standard 8/10 windows because they were buildt after the change. Air France and JAL were 2 operators that operated for many years a mix of orginal-3 windows and newer 8/10 windows 747-100s.
In this post, I speak of course only of early original first hand 747s operators.

Hope that helps.











User currently offlineAtlasAir From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Can anyone tell me what -200 has only three windows and who operates it ?

AtlasAir


User currently offlineAtlasAir From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

How can you tell the difference between the 747-100SUD and the 747-300 ? Are there any -200SUD
AtlasAir


User currently offline747Specialist From Switzerland, joined Apr 2001, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Atlas Air,

The only 747-200s remaining with 3 original windows must be some of ex-JAL 747-246s. These are now in service with Air Atlanta Icelandic as TF-ATB and ATF and were never converted to the 8/10 configuration.

The SUD conversion was ordered by 3 airlines: KLM (10x 747-206Bs converted), UTA (2x 747-2B3Bs converted) and JAL (2x 747-146Bs converted), making a total of 14 747-100/200S converted to SUD.

It's interesting to note the history of KLM's PH-BUH and BUI. Born as regular's 747-206Bs, they were converted to SUD, and then to Freighters SD...making them the only SUD and Freighter converted 747s.

Rgds
747Specialist


User currently offlineWilcharl From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

So, On TWA's aircraft ie: TWA 800, there were only 3 windows per side, but with the removial of the lounges, were alot of the upper deck "window seats" windowless?

User currently offlineN949WP From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2000, 1437 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (13 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1691 times:

TWA probably put three rows of premium seats on the upper deck, so three windows on each side is sufficient (though I wouldn't mind more).

Anyone know which class of service did TWA put on the upper decks? First? Business?

'949


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