Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2033 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2252 times:
OK, the A380 came in several tons overweight. If I am correct, there was a late switch from copper to aluminium cabling to save weight. Could this be a contributory/major factor in the delay in delivering the aircraft?
ElGreco From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2131 times:
Art,
This subject have already discussed, and as I am directly working on it for 5 years, and my company from 1968, see enclosed extracts of discussion.
Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 43):
Howdy all,
I have read most of the posts and I am a bit confused so perhaps some one could shed more light into this. A couple of people have posted some nifty stuff and one has alluded to directly asked the same question I am about to ask but no answer yet..
Ok., so I agree with Katekebos post on his assessment of the technology for using Al wiring and I think El greco made some good comments but did not understood K. post. So it is possible to use small gauge Al wiring in complex harness by using the appropriate technique. But why use Al when Cu is much easier to manufacture? It is of course lighter but if weight is not really an issue on the 380 why go that route. El Greco, when did the Harness/wiring issue come up? Did the original design call for Cu wiring? If so why go with Al late in the game? If not why the delay, I mean everyone know how to do Cu wiring, regardless fo the complexity?
Also, the wiring complexity has been blamed for the delay and this complexity is attributed to the wow factor of internal configurations chosen by the airlines. What are some of these wow factors or features? Is thales the principal supplier of the IFE system? Apart from the typical movies/radio/ internet connections which are common in most international airlines, are there being added that causes these kinds of problems. It cant be lighting since this does not call for small gauge wiring...
Also, Al wiring, once it has been placed is very difficult to remove, Cu can be put back in place not so for Al. So if the wiring/harnesses for the internal fittings (the wow factor) how does this affect the airline if they ever want to change the internal configuration, say 3 years form now. Will the harness/wiring have to be replaced then? I mean suppose quantas wants to up Singapore by adding more leg room and different seats while also increasing the width of their first and business class seats and adding bigger lcd screens, can they do this easily without damaging the wiring? Or are they stuck with the present or similar set up?
As far as the newspaper thing goes. I tend to be old school about this and feel that the majority of reporters/editors are professional that are good at their craft and so (although they might show some cultural sensitivities) will openly talk about the problems affecting their region or principal regional employer. Take the Seattle PI. I think that they go out of their way talk about any problems that are occurring with Boeing. So the european press is probably doing this as well (Haven’t looked but I will later). I wish they would talk about the actual technical problems with the whalejets delay, and they might yet, but they are probably focusing on the financial transgressions (alleged) of the main players right now. So I have to agree with EBBUK and planehunter (HI EBBUK and Planehunter!) on this issue.
Peace
Elvis777
Elvis777,
I'm happy to see so much interest on that technology, so some answer:
First a complete presentation have been made on this technology by Airbus and my company in October 2003 in Nashville (AEISS Conference).
Each aluminium wire are copper clad to solved oxidation problem of aluminium.
A380 was Aluminium cable design from the origin, but a complete Cooper harness design was made in case of. In fact it's same design except for big and medium wire (up to # 20-22) you need one gauge more (e.i.: you need #18 in aluminium to replace #20 in copper).
Installation, preparation, production, etc... are similare, even if Aluminium cable technology is more expensive today because no quantity, new crimping tools, etc...
So remember that you saved around 20% of weight and you need around 10% more volume, but not always in fact because for signal cables, you keep #24 aluminium cable to replace #24 copper one.
Furthermore, wiring are never replaced on any planes, quite impossible to do.
Air France for example get only aroud 10 electrical/harness operation/repair per plane per year.
On engines, harness are replaced completly after few years, but not on planes.
Furtheremore, electrical installation are really safe, and if you get a good installationwith qualified product, no problem at all, you instal them and you forget them.
El Greco
Quoting Par13del (Reply 46):
ElGreco, I posted a question in another thread, most of my questions there are being answered here, thanks much.
One additional question, when you say the A380 was originally designed with Al wiring but a copper set was also made, was that just for a test a/c or a small number of production models?
Thanks
No, in every program of such importance, we need to get as much as possible some security options, and in 2002 it was some security options, but after everything running well (even if such major inovation is never that easy).
To give you an idea, even the "Iron Plane" (so the first A380 harness made for testing installation) is made with aluminium cable.
But again, consider that A380 and B787 are both much more electrical than any other planes, and the security and redundancy in those programs are higher than in any other planes in the history.
The problem is for both that all that technology and the 500 km of wire are complex to design and to install, where in the same time structure elements is less complex to optimized (Catia, etc...), and fully hydraulics system have been reduce drastically.
A520 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1844 times:
Quoting ElGreco (Reply 1): So remember that you saved around 20% of weight and you need around 10% more volume, but not always in fact because for signal cables, you keep #24 aluminium cable to replace #24 copper one.
Just out of curiosity, what is the weight of the complete harness? Is 20% of that significant compare to the empty weight of the complete aircraft?
ElGreco From France, joined Nov 2005, 164 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 1650 times:
Quoting A520 (Reply 2): Quoting ElGreco (Reply 1):
So remember that you saved around 20% of weight and you need around 10% more volume, but not always in fact because for signal cables, you keep #24 aluminium cable to replace #24 copper one.
Just out of curiosity, what is the weight of the complete harness? Is 20% of that significant compare to the empty weight of the complete aircraft?
Global weight saving on A380 using aluminium cable was evaluate from 300 to 1000 kg at the beginning in 2001/2002, but less than 400 kg was the realistic target.
Today it look like we are more closed from 500 kg than 400kg.
This is an incredible value, and A400M use aluminium cable and as well A350 will use it.
Boeing will, I know see to use it in future, but it was to late for the B787.
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