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BOS Runway 14/32 Approach  
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9766 posts, RR: 27
Posted (7 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4201 times:
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Hello all.

So BOS is (finally) adding the new runway, 14/32, to the existing 4 runways (5 if you count 15L/33R, which I don't). The runway is planned as a unidirectional (rwy 32) landing runway to be used for smaller aircraft, and is 5,000 feet long.

What I found most interesting when I first saw the proposed runway a year or two ago is that it is not parallel to the runways 15/33 (at least, from what I can see on the airport diagram). Given that airplanes would be approaching runways 32 and 33L (from the end that converges), I was curious as to how landing traffic would flow into the new runway.

As a point of reference, if the difference in headings is 10 degrees, and the runways are about 5000 feet apart, then their approach paths will intersect a little over 5 statute miles from the airport (these figures are not exact, but they are close). This means that the approach paths will be a half-mile apart between 2.5 and 3 miles out.

I'm not currently familiar with any other airports that have runways that are not parallel, but will act as parallel runways for most intents and purposes. Will the aircraft using 14/32 simply have a short(er) final approach?

Thanks guys and girls.

Oh, here's a link to the airport diagram:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0609/00058AD.PDF

(on a side note, I had my first landing that I can remember on BOS's 15R last week on a flight from Europe - pretty cool - takes me right over work and within sight of home)

~Vik


"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4194 times:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Thread starter):
their approach paths will intersect a little over 5 statute miles from the airport

Ever smaller corrections! As a general sort of thing, while we have converging approaches, they don't have diverging ones. It is safer and easier to have planes paths cross slow, and on the ground than a few miles out where the window is larger and the difference in speeds is greater. I'm betting that there will be no simultaneous approaches involving these runways.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9766 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 4185 times:
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Quoting SlamClick (Reply 1):
Ever smaller corrections! As a general sort of thing, while we have converging approaches, they don't have diverging ones. It is safer and easier to have planes paths cross slow, and on the ground than a few miles out where the window is larger and the difference in speeds is greater. I'm betting that there will be no simultaneous approaches involving these runways.

That makes some sense to me, which is why I'm a bit confused on how they intend to utilize the new runway.

Is a non-simultaneous approach a staggered approach? I always get different approaches confused.

Thanks...

~Vik



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 2):
That makes some sense to me, which is why I'm a bit confused on how they intend to utilize the new runway.

There will be no ILS for 32. It will be visual approaches only. This will be very similar to the prefered configuration which is running ILS's into 04R and visuals into 04L. As long as they have visual seperation, they can fly wingtip to wingtip all the way down the final. As for your comment on 15R, BOS only uses 15R about 5% of the time due to noise abatement and traffic flow restrictions.


User currently offlineVxg From United States of America, joined May 2004, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

It can't be more than 10 degrees off between 32 and 33L - that's a very easy correction for aircraft coming in on a visual approach. The majority of the approach can be flown parallel to 33L and then a correction to the left lines you up just fine with 32. That will not be a problem for most aircraft using this runway.

For departures from 14 - same thing - after takeoff the aircraft make a turn to the right to avoid departing aircraft from 15R.

VxG


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

Im curious if A90 could get away with implementing Converging Runway Display Aid (CRDA) in conjunction with 32 approaches.

User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4040 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 5):
Im curious if A90 could get away with implementing Converging Runway Display Aid (CRDA) in conjunction with 32 approaches.

No they could not. Nor would they want it. They already tried using it several years ago in an attempt to run simultaneous ILS's to 33L and 27. After about 2 days the controllers realized that using this tool was downright dangerous, and it was promptly done away with. This isnt even applicable in the 33L/32 situation, as there will be no ILS to 32, so it will be all visual approaches with visual seperation with a/c on final for 33L, thus negating the need to stagger the final(s).


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9766 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4030 times:
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Thanks for the responses everyone.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 5):
Im curious if A90 could get away with implementing Converging Runway Display Aid (CRDA) in conjunction with 32 approaches.



Quoting Onetogo (Reply 6):
No they could not. Nor would they want it. They already tried using it several years ago in an attempt to run simultaneous ILS's to 33L and 27. After about 2 days the controllers realized that using this tool was downright dangerous, and it was promptly done away with. This isnt even applicable in the 33L/32 situation, as there will be no ILS to 32, so it will be all visual approaches with visual seperation with a/c on final for 33L, thus negating the need to stagger the final(s).

Could you guys explain the above two quotes to me? As in, what is 1.) A90, and 2.) CRDA?

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 3):
As for your comment on 15R, BOS only uses 15R about 5% of the time due to noise abatement and traffic flow restrictions.

Yep, I'm aware they don't use it all that much for landings, which is why it was cool to finally have one on it.

Thanks...

~Vik



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 6):
No they could not. Nor would they want it. They already tried using it several years ago in an attempt to run simultaneous ILS's to 33L and 27. After about 2 days the controllers realized that using this tool was downright dangerous, and it was promptly done away with. This isnt even applicable in the 33L/32 situation, as there will be no ILS to 32, so it will be all visual approaches with visual seperation with a/c on final for 33L, thus negating the need to stagger the final(s).

I was thinking it wouldnt be good to use if the runways dont cross. It would be more beneficial for 32/4R if they plan on running that. I know all other facilities that use CRDA have had no problems with compromising safety. It's not a matter of using the technology to a runway with an ILS. As long as you know what the winds are doing and you watch your speeds.


User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4014 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 8):
It would be more beneficial for 32/4R if they plan on running that

The winds would never dictate a situation where doing that would be applicable. Besides, BOS is at maximum efficiency when they run 4R/4L and depart 9. As for your comment regarding CRDA, perhaps you could cite some examples (I dont doubt you -- I just want to know where they use it). The information I got regarding the short term use of CRDA at BOS and its eventual termination was directly from an A90 controller at the facility.

For those who dont know what CRDA is, it essentially draws a ghost on final for both runways, so even though there isnt a plane there, you know what kind of seperation you will need since there are aircraft landing intersecting runways. Needless to say, the drawing of "ghost aircraft" on the radar screen seems slightly moronic, atleast thats what the A90 controllers thought when they used it for a mere 2 days before saying 'no more'.


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 9):
The winds would never dictate a situation where doing that would be applicable.

Well sure it would, if your relief says "winds strong out of the southeast. Give yourself an extra 2 miles" Then you better give yourself room following that ghost.

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 9):
perhaps you could cite some examples

I only know of three of the top of my head, PHL, YYZ and T75

And to further show CRDA. A photo of ghost from aircraft on the 27R final depicted on the 35 final. (The yellow limited datablocks only displaying speeds are the ghost)



[Edited 2006-09-24 16:40:24]

User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
"winds strong out of the southeast. Give yourself an extra 2 miles"

If winds are out of the southest, why on earth would you land 33L/34?


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 11):
If winds are out of the southest, why on earth would you land 33L/34?

Sometimes a facility may have to bite the bullet to keep that AAR up.


User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3861 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 12):

Sometimes a facility may have to bite the bullet to keep that AAR up.

Heh. Don't think so.


User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1240 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Yea ok, thats why I've seen Philly and Phoenix run west with winds 080 at 12... All hail Mike the god of ATC, hail, hail.

User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 14):
All hail Mike the god of ATC, hail, hail.

You've got it, my man! Thanks!!


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