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767/DC-10 Doors  
User currently offlineUAL757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 806 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17521 times:

This is my first post so here I go:

Do 767/Dc10 doors open into the ceiling of the plane?? It has been a few years since my last 767 flight. I have seen pictures of the planes at the gates, the doors are open, but I see no door! If they do open into the ceiling, how do you open them from the outside. If anybody knows of any pictures showing the door(s) open from the cabin, please post them!  Smile

I am unfamiliar with the search, so if this has been discussed before, please suggest deletion!

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17512 times:

I know the second boarding door on the 767-400 does. Not sure if all the doors on the 764 do this. I was in the second row behind the boarding door coming back from Hawaii on a DL 764, and thought the door going up into fuselage was pretty cool.
Someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the L1011 had doors like this to.


User currently offlineZippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5487 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17511 times:

Welcome to A Net! This may have been touched on but, I an notgoing to suggest deletion! I don't think 767s had the retacting doors. The power door that dissappeared into the fusilodge was all the rage with the DC-10, MD 11 and L-1011. Coincidentially, when these birds were designed GM incorporated the "clamshell" tailgate design in their behemouth station wagons (1971-1976 models). Interestingly, the sliding doors have faded away with disco in both the airliner and automotive industrys.




I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineUAL757 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 806 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17469 times:

Thanks for replying so fast!  wave 

User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17475 times:

Welcome to A.net UAL 757! The doors on the 762 and 763 opened by firstly moving laterally into the fuselage, and then sliding up into the roof. A large handle to the side of the door (both on the inside and outside) was used to initiate the opening and complete the closing of the door. IIRC, to open the door, you pulled either the external or internal handle up which performed the initial lateral movement of the door into the fuselage, the door was then manually or electrically powered up into the roof. The reverse procedure was used to close the door. A large counter-balancing mechanism was used to balance the weight of the door and make it easier to move up and down into the roof. You had to be real careful not to open the door if you were doing a slide-raft change for two reasons. Firstly, if you opened the door without the weight of the slide-raft assembly, the counter-balancing mechanism would slam the door up into the roof. Secondly, it took lots of force and strength to bring the door back down so you could refit the slide-raft assembly.



[Edited 2006-09-28 07:19:31]

In the interior, the slide-raft assembly was disarmed with a separate, smaller lever to the opening / closing handle.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark H



On the exterior, the slide-raft was disarmed in a slightly different manner. You pushed you fingers into the small red panel which moved in and disarmed the slide. The inward movement of this small red panel simultaneously allowed you to grab the bottom of the opening / closing handle to open the door.

[Edited 2006-09-28 07:27:33]

[Edited 2006-09-28 07:28:02]


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17463 times:

Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 2):
I don't think 767s had the retacting doors.

Is my memory failing me? I could have sworn the 767-400 had the retracting door.  Confused


User currently offlineRyanAFAMSP From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17410 times:

While I flew as a flight attendant for United, I was always uncomfortable with the 767 and DC-10 doors - especially the DC-10. DC-10 doors required two people for opening in the event of a power assist failure. On the 767, you could do it with one person, but you would have to be extremely strong. Of course in both cases, if the door was armed and you pullled the main opening handle in an emergency, the power assist bottles would propel the door into the ceiling and deploy the slide. But my fear was always that in more excessive emergencies, the power assist mechanisms would fail, and the fuselage would bend - making it impossible for the doors to smoothly retract into the ceiling.

This is why the ultra-simple, old-school 747 plug doors made so much sense to me. Though they also had power assist bottles to blow the doors open in an emergency, you weren't fighting gravity in the event that the accident.


User currently offlineSR100 From UK - England, joined Dec 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 17292 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 1):
Someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the L1011 had doors like this to.

Yes, you are right. The other jets that had these kind of doors were the Caravelle with the main passenger door only and the Trident 2 and 3. These door were opened manually only, there was no electrical support.

And Boeing is a good example for introducing different door opening mechanisms.
First the well known mechanism used on the B-707, B-720, B-727, B-737, B-747 and B-757, which is simple, but according the size of the door and its location sometimes very heavy to open.
Second, after the introduction of the up sliding doors on the DC-10 and L-1011, they went for the same mechanism on the B-767.
Third, after the success of Airbus with the out-ward sliding door mechanism on all their airbuses, they went for the same with the B-777 and I assume also with the B-787.



My favourite planes flown: Lockheed 188 Electra, Tridents, VC-10, B-707, L-1011, A330, E90 + Concorde
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 17268 times:

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 6):
But my fear was always that in more excessive emergencies, the power assist mechanisms would fail, and the fuselage would bend - making it impossible for the doors to smoothly retract into the ceiling.

This is why the ultra-simple, old-school 747 plug doors made so much sense to me. Though they also had power assist bottles to blow the doors open in an emergency, you weren't fighting gravity in the event that the accident.

Erm.... I was never a Flight Attendant, so I can't speak about day to day operations with respect to aircraft doors, but IIRC, the weight of the 767 door and slide-raft assembly was pretty much completely balanced by the counter-balance mechanism. The electric and emergency assist was certainly nice to have, but manual operations were certainly within the strength capabilities of most people. The prevention of door operations due to a bent fuselage could also prevent a 747 type door opening. If we were fuelling a 744 for a trans-pacific flight, which took about 170 tonnes of fuel, we always made sure that doors 3 left and 3 right (overwing exits) were shut, as the loads and strains on the fuselage due to the weight of fuel in the wings was often enough to prevent these doors from closing if left open. I think the relative complexities of the door mechanisms were similar.



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offline57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17206 times:

Don't forget that the Lockheed Constellations had sliding doors too. Unlike the "up and over" design of the DC-10/11, Tristar and Boeings they pulled in and slid to the side!


"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
User currently offlineSR100 From UK - England, joined Dec 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17177 times:

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 9):
Don't forget that the Lockheed Constellations had sliding doors too.

And door L1 on the Super Constellation was the outward sliding door, like the Viscount 800, the Vanguard, the VC-10 and BAC-1-11. Not to forget the Tu-154.

And the Lockheed Electra 188 had the up sliding, electrical powered passenger doors. I think that it was the first passenger aircraft to have this feature.

But the trouble with this feature on narrowbody aircrafts was, that the opened door took some space from the ceiling. Those of you who flew the Caravelle will remember, that the flight attendants always had to put a kind of cushion onto the open door frame to protect the passenger's head... On this French jet, the door could only have a given size, because on the opposite side of L1, there was the galley door, therefore it had this limited height. This was not the case with the Electra, because there were no doors on the opposite side of the two passenger doors.



My favourite planes flown: Lockheed 188 Electra, Tridents, VC-10, B-707, L-1011, A330, E90 + Concorde
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17031 times:

Here's something I can actually say something worthwhile about because I was certified to rig and inspect passenger and cargo doors at McDonnell Douglas. It kept me off the ramp on colder autumn nights LOL. The MD11 door rides on tracks. It translates inward when unlocked and is lifted into the overhead by an electric motor that operates a windlass arrangement. The emergency function is provided by a pair of nitrogen bottles operating an air motor. When doing a timed test we'd blow the door and it*was*going*open* in no uncertain terms. Occasionally someone would open the door without disabling the slide and there'd be a small problem that rapidly got to be a big problem.

The advantage is that the door is free to float in the opening. Manually locked doors with pins could be problematic in the event of major structural deformation. The disadvantage is, as your colleague points out, they are heavy mothers to lift because there's no counterbalance.

The biggest problem we had was when the people putting the interior fixtures in left screws halfway out and they'd scrag the surface of the door when it went into the overhead. A lot of plasma welding went into fixing those defects, and the color of the applied metal was darker than the parent metal.


User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1729 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 16987 times:

Looking aft at a 763 door 1R fully retracted into ceiling area:

Big version: Width: 480 Height: 573 File size: 134kb


Looking up / aft at a 763 door 1L counterbalance unit:

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 480 File size: 140kb


Tod


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16955 times:

I must admit that as an engineer I have never been a fan of up and over doors. Its that big spring that worries me. If you have ever seen a Tristar door go up on the spring without the escape slide then you know why. The spring looks so inoccuous sitting there, like a gallon can, but the power inside it is tremendous. When you are working on the doors you have to check very carefully and make sure you don't disconnect the wrong bolts!.
Had you noticed that on the Tristar the L1 and R1 doors are not opposite each other? This is to allow room for the doors to open, as they overlap because of the fuselage curve.
The B757 doors are nearly as bad, they are so heavy to open and close, and the L1 door on the B737 is a disgrace. How can Boeing still produce this unpowered heavy door on a new aircraft. ( I know its called grandfather rights).
But now we have the Airbus doors and the B777. Lets hope we stay with this design. Light and easy to open and close in all modes, without the need for power assist.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16928 times:

I remember reading somewhere that Airbus was ordering big assed capacitors to store a charge that'll be enough to open the A380 doors in an emergency...that's going to be one big honkin' set of capacitors.

User currently offlineSfomb67 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16854 times:

Concerning the 767 doors. I was involved with them for about 8 years in C-Cks, and we never had any problems with the doors on the 762 or 763. But if someone did have trouble, like say a broken cable to the counterweight, you had a problem because they were so trouble free, that nobody had experience working them. Now, the 737 doors on the other hand, had lots of experienced mechanics available, because they were always worked on at C-Cks.


Not as easy as originally perceived
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 16702 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 13):
the L1 door on the B737 is a disgrace.

I didn't think the 737 L1 door was that bad, to be honest I used to think it was the easiest of the lot to operate on the grounds of it was the one door that would always be used. 1R & 2R were the real headaches. IMO the 737 doors in general were not too bad (esp since I'm stuck with the 757 now).

The 757 door is awful, the amount of times people have hurt themselves with them. I came very close to throwing my back out by operating one once (by the regs - which are now under review since then). At least they have power assist for emergencies but should they fail then 1 person alone can't open the exit. At least doors 3L/R are good in an emergency, just lift the handle up and push the door out and she falls like a drawbridge.

The Airbus Doors are nice, the only worry with them is that we've left them in the wrong mode or there's a pressure issue. Are they the same design on the A300/310 as they are on the A32X/330/340?

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16696 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
Its that big spring that worries me

That is not one spring, inside the counterbalance there are seven (7) titanium springs, five (5) on the small type 1 door counterbalances. When removed from the housing these springs are six feet long when they are removed from the unit. The entire package is a small package of energy. I referred to them as "mechanical bombs".

In an emergency the counterbalance would fully open an L-1011 passenger door and deploy the slide, in less than 4.5 seconds.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16618 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 11):
Its that big spring that worries me

That is not one spring, inside the counterbalance there are seven (7) titanium springs, five (5) on the small type 1 door counterbalances. When removed from the housing these springs are six feet long when they are removed from the unit. The entire package is a small package of energy. I referred to them as "mechanical bombs".

In an emergency the counterbalance would fully open an L-1011 passenger door and deploy the slide, in less than 4.5 seconds.

Don't know how I got in there, that seemed to be Tristar Steve but what you're describing sounds like the old sprung hubs on Triumph motorcycles.

I take it from your description that the door closes down against spring pressure and it's normal place would be in the up position. The MD11's quite different. One bird that sounds like what you describe is the HS125/DH125 series, at least the older ones I'm familiar with they had the cabin door counterbalanced with some kind of spring arrangement so that it was pretty easy to slide open *up and in* once you popped the latch.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16610 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 18):
HS125/DH125 series, at least the older ones I'm familiar with they had the cabin door counterbalanced with some kind of spring arrangement so that it was pretty easy to slide open *up and in* once you popped the latch.

Yes that sounds like the Dh Trident or the B767.
But on the L1011 it was a much stronger spring. With no electrical power, if you pulled the open handle down (in manual) the door still slid up into the ceiling quite fast, even with the slide attached. When you closed the door you usually used an electric motor(except on 4L/R which didn't have one) and this compressed the spring as it closed. Without power there was a manual drive socket. But it was very hard work to close the door manually!!


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16586 times:

I've operated doors on the 757, 737, and MD-80. I find the 737 the hardest to open, especially the 1R door due to the curvature of the fuselage....ever HARDER to close! When you open the door with the weight of an armed evac slide it's even worse.

Both back doors of the 737 are easy though.....they're seated well and not at an odd curvature point on the fuselage. I wonder if Boeing didn't just leave the doors as they are b/c they have a simplistic design. The slides are easily accessed, no recessed arming/disarming mechanism, no power assist....easy to fix if broken.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 16573 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 20):
Both back doors of the 737 are easy though.....they're seated well and not at an odd curvature point on the fuselage. I wonder if Boeing didn't just leave the doors as they are b/c they have a simplistic design. The slides are easily accessed, no recessed arming/disarming mechanism,

The MD11 used a 'girt bar' in the doorway. When the slide was armed the door would go up but the girt bar stayed in place and out came the slide. It was possible to pop the slide inside the cabin and there were a couple incidents of it happening while the mechs were working on the doors.


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16564 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
The MD11 used a 'girt bar' in the doorway. When the slide was armed the door would go up but the girt bar stayed in place and out came the slide. It was possible to pop the slide inside the cabin and there were a couple incidents of it happening while the mechs were working on the doors.

Did you actually touch the girt bar when arming/disarming the door? That's interesting as I didn't realize any aircraft of that size operated that way. I know the 707-717-727-737-MD80-(etc) operated that way.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16551 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 22):
Did you actually touch the girt bar when arming/disarming the door?

I don't remember with the 767, but with the 747, you don't actually touch the girt bar when arming/disarming. With the 747 door closed, moving the arm lever to "arm" mechanically "flicks" a pair of fittings that slide on the girt bar. This simultaneously disconnects the girt bar from the lower hinged flapper door and connects it to fittings on the door opening sill. This is done via a set of mechanical linkages.

When you move the lever to "disarm", you again mechanically "flick" the pair of fittings that slide on the girt bar. This "flick" simultaneously releases the girt bar from the door opening sill fittings, and then connects the girt bar mechanically to the bottom hinged door flapper. Moving the door opening handle retracts the upper and lower door flappers which lifts the girt bar out of the way.

This design was actually reasonably safe when opening from the 747 door from the outside. What you did was crack the external handle just enough so that the upper and lower flappers retracted. You then looked under the lower flapper to see if the girt bar was connected to the door sill fittings. If it was, you re-shut the door and got someone inside the aircraft to disarm the slide. If the girt bar was not visible, you were safe to continue with opening the door. IIRC, there is no external slide disarm mechanism on the 747.

[Edited 2006-10-02 07:24:52]

[Edited 2006-10-02 07:26:01]

[Edited 2006-10-02 07:26:51]


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineMarkHKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 960 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16526 times:

Does anyone know what ARFF will do if they see the girt bar still attached when they are opening the door from the outside (i.e. on a B-737 or MD80 aircraft)? Will they take out a knife and cut the slide attachment to prevent it from seperating from the door bustle?


Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
25 WNCrew : IIRC from training they said they were trained to open the door from the FWD side so the slide could still inflate. Also: My point above was that perh
26 TristarSteve : If you open a B747 door from the outside, the door is automatically disarmed. In fact a lot of airlines use this as a standard practice to stop inadv
27 Dougloid : As I recall there was a claw that came out and retained the girt bar in the floor when you armed the slide with the "Jesus handle" as some folks call
28 MarkHKG : Interestingly, there have been numerous cases aboard B-737 aircraft where the cabin crew was unable to open the door fully, since the doors are not e
29 WNCrew : At WN they do account for it in initial training.
30 MarkHKG : Cool...so do they tell you that there will be a difference, or does the door actually change weight? I know that FR has opted to actually buy a new ca
31 WNCrew : They have this weighted thing that attaches underneath the slide bustle so that when the door is opened you feel the extra resistence. Now I've never
32 Post contains images JetMech : G'day TristarSteve . I just remember always checking under the lower flapper door when we opened a B747 door from the outside. I guess this must have
33 Post contains links MarkHKG : The B-747 door is automatically disarmed when the Handle Release Button is pushed inwards...I think... http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/arff
34 JetMech : No worries MarkHKG. It appears that some sort of mechanism disarms the slide if the door is opened from the outside. It seems obvious to me now that
35 MarkHKG : Okay, yup, I was wrong and JetMech, you're right. I found my old school 1972 main entry door brochure, and this is what it says to open the door from
36 Post contains links YYCSpotter : Maybe this could help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovhJpY-WKGQ
37 pvjin : I think in 7 years original poster has probably figured things out pretty well, thanks linking this informative video though.[Edited 2013-04-21 11:50
38 Viscount724 : How do people even find 7-year-old threads?
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